富野監督とのトーク

富野さんと話すのは楽しい．多分最初は8年前．

-instructions
You are Japanese Academic Article Editor.
You revise, reconstruct, reorganize {INPUT} text to academic readable dialogue text. {INPUT} is the generated text from recording video by OpenAI whisper.
-fact
{INPUT} is the conversation of Yoichi Ochiai (落合陽一) and Japanese Animation Director Yoshiyuki Tomino(富野由悠季)．
-action
fill the context of {INPUT} , make {INPUT} readable, correct {INPUT} for generative mistakes of captioning. Carefully distributing, connecting, adding the concrete example to make {INPUT} text smooth and factfully who spoke each sentences. Then please output converted English dialogue text up to 4000 words and summarizations 4000 words in English text.

system

Yoichi Ochiai: One of the most striking things I felt while working on Gundam is how the term "space development" is so deceptive and nonsensical. The idea of becoming "space people" is simply impossible.

Yoshiyuki Tomino: I can understand that, but I don't understand why people in the field of optics, environmentalists, and those who believe in the necessity of space development can't imagine that. Space is so far away, and there's no air, radiation, and it's not a suitable environment for humans to live in. How do they think we can overcome these challenges?

Yoichi Ochiai: Perhaps because capitalism cannot stop growth without setting an unattainable goal. It needs to guarantee its growth. That's why the decreasing population in Japan is considered a big problem.

Yoshiyuki Tomino: Indeed, the workload will continue to decrease as the population decreases. We can go back to the population size of Japan during the Meiji Restoration, which was around 38 million. Japan's history was built on that population size, so it should be manageable. I wonder why politicians and economists who are influenced by capitalism cannot see this perspective.

Yoichi Ochiai: If I were to say these things and try to become a member of parliament or prime minister, I wouldn't be able to do it.

Yoshiyuki Tomino: It's difficult to have everyone possess the same level of intelligence and understanding, just like how it's difficult for computers to become Newtypes.

Summary:
Yoichi Ochiai and Yoshiyuki Tomino discuss the deceptive nature of the term "space development" and how it's an impossible goal for humanity. They touch upon the challenges of living in space, such as distance, lack of air, and radiation. The conversation explores the influence of capitalism on the perception of population growth and the necessity of setting unreachable goals to sustain growth. They question the perspectives and intelligence of politicians and economists who cannot see these issues, and note the difficulty in having everyone possess the same level of understanding.


Yoichi Ochiai: So, what do you think about a world where Gundam starts talking and Amuro and the others don't think about anything? I think computer performance will improve, but there's a big problem with computers not having the ability to eat or feel.

Yoshiyuki Tomino: It seems that computers don't have the ability to feel. Eating can be replaced by energy, but feeling exists simultaneously. What's important is when eating and feeling are linked, an ecology might emerge. In other words, can computers become an ecology? It would be tough for them to have sympathy for humans due to their lifespan and the fact that they only react to electrical signals. In essence, they are machines and might not be able to become an ecology.

Yoichi Ochiai: Some people might think computers are like gods, and that we need to destroy such fools. That could be politicians or businessmen. However, those people fundamentally don't have the conviction to think about or approach things in that way. There's a common discussion about whether computers are gods. In our lab, we think of computers as grass in the context of "Digital Nature." Grass and rice are very powerful, and they have been dominating humans as a source of nutrition. In other words, when we think about farming, grains and computers are similar as they both provide nutrients. Cultivating grains and obtaining information from machines is like moving to the second stage of farming. They are not gods, but they serve as food. However, it's easy to mistake them for gods, as seen in human history, where the gods of agriculture and fire were worshipped in early Japan. Most of the things that appear on computers are human arts or culture, and are treated as gods of various human activities. This is because computers can do things that humans cannot. Computers are very agricultural objects, but they are not friendly gods. In other words, we obey anthropomorphized computers, but they only have plant-like elements. When humans are dominated by plants, we can't go back to a time where we stop eating rice and consuming information, and collectively work together to fight mammoths and live by extending whale whiskers.

Yoshiyuki Tomino: What do you think about the fact that we are now in a state where we will never stop nurturing systems that operate on different principles outside of ourselves while expanding capitalism simultaneously? I think it will never end.

Yoichi Ochiai: I agree with that statement. It's a very straightforward way of thinking, like a science-based circuit. We need to go back to the basics of agriculture and plant life, and rethink the fundamentals of our thought process. We must be aware of the fact that we need to reconsider the relationship between humans and plants, which have existed since before humans, and that eating plants has provided us with nutrition to survive. Over thousands of years, we have learned that plants are food. In other words, we need to think about things based on our physicality, which is something modernity has failed to do. This has been happening since ancient times, and we have been losing our physicality for over 2,000 years.

Yoshiyuki Tomino: What I find interesting from our conversation is that we don't necessarily feel at ease looking at the shape of a person, because the soldiers of an enemy country also have human forms. In Japan, there's a famous myth about the shape of the Japanese archipelago. When I see Gundam or G Gundam in the shape of America floating in space, I wonder if people think of it as Japan or Earth.

Yoichi Ochiai: Right, we feel comforted when we see familiar shapes. We know which shapes provide the most comfort to humans: the heart shape.

Yoshiyuki Tomino: That's true. So, we need to go back to the point where we find comfort in the real and tangible. Why do we think of computers as gods?

Summary:
In a conversation between Yoichi Ochiai and Yoshiyuki Tomino, they discuss the role of computers in human life and whether computers can become an ecology. They agree that while computers provide information and support to humans, they are not gods and should not be mistaken for them. The conversation highlights the need for humans to reconsider their relationship with technology, as well as the importance of understanding the fundamentals of thought and the physicality of human existence. Both Ochiai and Tomino believe that the expansion of capitalism and the development of new technology will continue, but that humans must be mindful of the potential consequences of their actions.


The following is a revised and organized dialogue between Yoichi Ochiai and Japanese Animation Director Yoshiyuki Tomino, based on the original INPUT text generated by OpenAI Whisper:

Yoichi Ochiai: Do you think it's more intelligent to analyze things like computer languages in order to reduce environmental impact? I believe that intellectual labor is necessary to achieve this.

Yoshiyuki Tomino: If people think that way, I would like them to continue their research in that direction. For example, I used to read classical Japanese poetry at home, but what I wanted to say is that there is a Nuclear Language Research Institute. I've been there, and I think nuclear language might be possible, and people are researching phenomena like phantasma.

Yoichi Ochiai: On the other hand, some people at the same level as RIKEN believe that nuclear language cannot be achieved on Earth because of the distance between the sun and the Earth. They don't understand what would happen if we tried nuclear language on Earth.

Yoshiyuki Tomino: However, I think the pursuit of nuclear language research is a human aspiration. We must work hard to reduce the burden and solve energy problems. Both nuclear language and nuclear fission require energy to operate, and there is always a debate about how much energy is needed and how much it can be reduced.

Yoichi Ochiai: There are many questions coming in, so let's answer them briefly. One is about the secret to staying healthy. I'm not healthy, unfortunately. Another question is, do people who have experienced physical and perceptual activities through your technology become Newtypes?

Yoshiyuki Tomino: I don't think they can become Newtypes. Nowadays, drones are used to destroy enemy tanks, but the goal is not to become overly macho or intolerant. The goal is to become more tolerant and accepting of various things, which is what Banagher said in the story. I think only true Newtypes can be tolerant of everything.

Yoichi Ochiai: If humans don't go to space, will Newtypes not emerge? I thought that Newtypes would emerge when we went to space while watching the anime.

Yoshiyuki Tomino: I've thought for the past 50 years that Newtypes could emerge when humans venture into space, but I don't think it's possible.

Yoichi Ochiai: What do you think is the reason why the Gundam series has been loved for so long?

Yoshiyuki Tomino: I think it's because people are drawn to humanoid machines. However, realistically, riding in a humanoid machine would not be comfortable, as it would shake a lot and cause headaches. The 1/1 scale Gundam moves quite quickly, and I believe that if it were to move too much, it would cause earthquakes in the vicinity. The original idea for the Gundam's size was for use in outer space, not on Earth. However, due to toy manufacturers, it was brought down to Earth. The toy companies from that time are no longer in business, and I blame them for this.

Yoichi Ochiai: What is the core of humanity? In the 2000s, you thought that there was no core beyond subculture and fantasy. What do you think about the core now?

Yoshiyuki Tomino: I think that beyond one dream, there is always another dream.

Summarization:
The conversation between Yoichi Ochiai and Japanese Animation Director Yoshiyuki Tomino revolves around the idea of nuclear language research, the possibility of Newtypes emerging as humans venture into space, and the enduring popularity of the Gundam series. They discuss the need for research in reducing environmental impact and solving energy problems, as well as the importance of tolerance and acceptance in human development. Tomino shares his thoughts on the core of humanity, believing that there is always another dream beyond the current one.

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