Transcript: Translation of official minutes (unfinished) of Lower House deliberation on #KuToo by @OtsujiKanako (CDP) | 5/6/2019

June 5, 2019

Committee on Health, Labour and Welfare
House of Representatives
National Diet of Japan

Official Minutes (unfinished)

CDP Rep. Kanako Otsuji's deliberation on #KuToo

Source: House Representative Kanako Otsuji's Activities Blog

2019年６月５日　厚生労働委員会 | 活動報告ブログ

Highlight video from French media Brut

"Imposer aux femmes de porter des talons et des escarpins peut être professionnellement nécessaire."
C'est la réponse du ministre japonais du Travail, interpellé au Parlement par une députée demandant l'interdiction d'imposer le port des talons au travail. Voici leur échange. pic.twitter.com/DZcc7GttIG

— Brut FR (@brutofficiel) June 11, 2019

ROUND 1: Question x3

- Requiring high-heels or pumps in workplaces (1st time)
- Response to receiving a written request (1st time)
- Measures going forward (if any)

Rep. Otsuji:

Now moving on to the next topic. I would like to ask the Minister about requiring women to wear heels or pumps in workplaces.
Day before yesterday, on June 3rd, along with a petition signed by approximately 18,800 signatures, a written request was filed with the Ministry of Health, Labour and Welfare requesting to stop instructing the use of heels or pumps in workplaces.
This is a movement known as "#KuToo " - which is expressed in Romanized Japanese - meaning requiring to wear them is 'kutsuu' [distressful] and expressing this has been widespread on the internet.
Heels or pumps place heavy burden on their feet, known to cause hallux valgus or sore shoes, as well as place burden on their backs.
According to a survey report on work-related injuries, there are many case of women in the ages of 18 to 26 suffer from work-related injuries, and the report concluded with the assumption that the cause may be attributable to the use of high-heels.
In addition, the report also points out that high-heels tend to weaken the body function to maintain upright posture and that wearers tend to fall forward. Meaning, it increases the risk of falling. 
Even with these indications, many situations, mainly during job hunts and in the line of services business, appear to require the use of pumps or high-heels.
I would like to ask how the Minister has received these events; about requiring to wear high-heels or pumps in workplaces, about the fact that such written request has been made, and also what you intend to do in response going forward.

Reference: 

Over 60% of women face enforcement of heels at work, study finds - The Mainichi

Minister Nemoto:

The Ministry of Health, Labour and Welfare also deems important to ensure that each and every worker is provided with a comfortable work environment.
On wearing high-heels or pumps, I believe each field of work devises different measures. For example, from the viewpoint of workers safety and health, it is important that due consideration is given to avoid incidents of back pains or falling. I believe each workplace should devise measures in line with their corresponding situations and conditions.
That means, how each workplace operates, generally speaking, depends on the condition and judgment of each workplace. Was that sufficient?

ROUND 2: Question x1

- Response to receiving a written request (2nd time)

Rep. Otsuji:

As I felt that was not quite sufficient, I would like to ask more on this. So what is your response to having been delivered with such request?

Min. Nemoto:

We did receive such request, and we did accept those petitions.
Again, we deem it is important to ensure that each and every worker is provided with a comfortable work environment. There are many developments. So we will work towards creating a comfortable working environment while keeping our eyes on those developments.

ROUND ３：Question x1

- Requiring high-heels or pumps in workplaces (2nd time)

Rep. Otsuji:

Let me ask you more on your response. Do you believe high-heels or pumps should be required? I am asking the Minister.

Min. Nemoto:

You are asking about how I think about requiring high-heels or pumps [in workplaces]. Correct?
Instructing or requiring women to wear high-heels or pumps, I believe, depends on whether it is within the scope necessary to conduct business and also within socially acceptable norms. It all depends on what is required in each area of business. Is this sufficient?

ROUND 4: Question x1

- Requiring high-heels or pumps in workplaces (3rd time)

Rep. Otsuji:

I believe that this [requiring use of high-heels in workplaces] has to be changed and to think of it carefully, no workplace should have to require the use of high-heels or pumps. Requiring them in itself is outdated. And it is causing health issues. As I stated earlier, this is a problem from the viewpoint of workers safety and health.
I still have not quite grasped whether you think of this as an issue or you do not thinks so, so at least could you answer this please.

Min. Nemoto:

Forcing upon or instructing women to wear high-heels or pumps, this varies in different cases, but the key is whether it is required to conduct business under socially acceptable norms. In other words, this is dependent on social institution. So we would like to keep a lookout on those developments while working towards a more comfortable working environment.

ROUND 5: Confirmation x1

- Requiring high-heels or pumps in workplaces (4th time) > Dep. Min. Takagai

Rep. Otsuji:

I still feel something is not quite right.
I am sorry to ask you all of the sudden, but Deputy Minister Takagai. This issue of women being required to wear heels or pumps or workplaces that require them may be a bit difficult for the Minister as a man to grasp. So just your impression is fine. As your impression, could you answer what your feelings are on this?
I am sorry for this being an abrupt question.

Deputy Minister Takagai:

I am sorry, I am not sure if this would suffice as I was asked abruptly. I am not fully aware of how many of workplaces actually require such use.
But generally speaking, as I believe every workplace should be driven towards and is expected to duly consider that rules are placed within the realm of required work and that the workers should be ensured with a safe work environment, I would think it is not something to be forced upon.

ROUND 6: Request x1

- Response from both viewpoints of work safety and sexual harassment

Rep. Otsuji:

Thank you. It would have been nice if Minister himself could have provided such response.
So there are social institutions that do not allow them to speak out, even if they have sore feet, or hallux valgus, or sore shoes, or even work-related injuries due to falling. They are asking to do something about these, so I would implore that you take these requests seriously, particularly in light of the Law on Occupational Safety and Health requiring the business operators to ensure safety and health of their workers.
And this is something I would like the Ministry to consider further. That requiring only women to wear high-heels or pumps could be considered an act of harassment.
According to the National Personnel Authority Rules 10-10, sexual harassment regulations that all public servants are subject to, the mindset of dividing work according to sexes, or gender-based actions, are also considered an act of sexual harassment. As clarified in this document, these acts may be considered an act of harassment as well. So I would like to ask the Ministry to work from the viewpoint of both work safety/health and harassment. So Minister, I would like to request that your work on both of these. What would you have to say?

Min. Nemoto:

On instructing women in workplaces to wear high-heels or pumps, you talked from the perspective of power harassment [or abuse of power].
The point is whether such instruction is within the use necessary for conducting business and also within socially acceptable norms or not. The issue is whether this corresponds to a power harassment [an abuse of power].
On the other hand, forcing without necessity a worker with injured foot to wear them, for example, could constitute a power harassment [an abuse of power].
The point is under what circumstances such practice is taken and under what condition the workplace has made its decision to undertake such practice. That is where judgments can be made.

ROUND 7: Info-sharing + Request x1

- Overseas situations
- Acknowledge & respond as issue of gender discrimination

Rep. Otsuji:

Again, I would like to implore you to accept the fact that the request was made and that 18,000 people have signed the petition. Please initiate the discussion.
By the way, you should know that in the Province of British Columbia in Canada, requiring high-heels has been banned.
Also in a major accounting firm in London, U.K., there was a case where a woman hired by its contractor was ordered to return home because she was not wearing high-heels. This has caused an social uproar.
In the Philippines, an administrative order was executed to ban workplaces from requiring to wear high-heels. So in many countries, making it a requirement has been recognized as a problem and an issue to be tackled with.
So, please tackle them, firmly. For many women at work and many women who want to work, this has been an obstacle. This is also an issue of gender discrimination as well. So please tackle them without delay.