maikokarinoさんのGC（ジェンダークリティカル）に関するnote記事のPDF魚拓
イギリスのトランスアクティビストは暴力的な男性というイメージがついてしまっている。現に女装さえできない普通の男性がトランス女性を名のって女子スペースに入ろうとしている。
Trans activists clad in balaclavas barricade women's rights campaigners into pub and call them 'fascists' (gbnews.uk)
覆面を被った自称トランス女性軍団がフェミニストの会合を妨害
Abusive trans activist SWEARS at Piers Morgan in heated clash - YouTube
↑女装さえできない自称トランス女性。日本の女装者よりひどい。
もしこの人が病院に行っても性別違和とは診断されず、ほかの病気と思われる。司会者の質問にまともに答えられない。
この過激なトランス軍団のアカウント↓
https://twitter.com/manc_up
Tensions arise between 'Standing for Women' and balaclava-clad trans activists in Manchester - YouTube
イギリスは手術の必要なく診断書があれば性別を変えられる国です。それだけでも日本よりはるかに自由な国です。それほど楽なのに病院に行かないということは、医師に”性別違和”はないと宣言されるのが怖いのだと思います。
自称トランス女性の男たちは、フェミニストにいじめられている被害者のふりをしなければならないのは、病院に行くとトランスではないと言われてしまうからでしょう。
わたしはいろんなタイプの方と会ったことがあります。
統合失調症で目の前に武士の幻覚が現れ、”お前は女だ”と言われたから”俺”は女だと叫んでいた人も見たことがあります。これは除外される人です。
発達障害で性別違和も持っている友達も数人います。これは除外されず、発達障害と性別違和の二つの診断を持っている人たちです。社会的にはカムアウトして移行してるけど、手術しても生きづらさが改善されないかもしれない方たちです。
週末女装を趣味で楽しむサラリーマンもたくさんいます。これはセルフIDを使ってはいけない人たちです。
彼氏をつくるために女装する人たちもたくさんいます。これはゲイだと言われても納得してる人たちでやはりセルフIDは使うべきではない人たちです。
わたしからするとイギリスでセルフIDを主張しているトランスアクティビストは本当の自分を知るのを恐れている人達で、本当の自分を知るという恐怖を仮想の敵TERFを作り上げて回避しようとしてるように見えます。
やはりトランスアクティビストは精神科に行ったほうがいいと思います。
イギリスはセルフIDを採用しないと思われる
maikokarino
maikokarino
2022年7月27日 16:25
https://note.com/maikokarino/n/ncc2f9018b5d8
わたしはこれは自己申告のジェンダーを疑えの運動だと解釈しています。。
https://libguides.ufv.ca/c.php?g=724801&p=5233401
キャスリーンストックは、18年間サセックス大学の哲学教授でした。学生たちは抗議し、ポスターキャンペーンを作成し、彼女の辞任を求めた。キャスリーンストックは2018年にジェンダー批判的な見解について話し始め、それ以来、学生の抗議と相まって、極端な同僚の小さなグループからいじめを受け、2021年にサセックス大学を辞めました（Barnett、E.、2021）。
前回の投稿の動画の中でキャスリーンストックは、ホルモン治療をしていて外見が女性に見えれば女子更衣室を使っても、”わからないから”よいと言っています。
わからないレベルとはどのくらい？
わたしの経験では、女性ホルモンで胸があることは大きな違いでした。
女装の方は裸になったら胸はありません。トラスセクシャルには自分の胸があります。トランスセクシャルはもっと自分の胸に自信を持つべきです。たとえそれがBカップしかなかったとしても。わたしの乳首はなぜかもともとシス女性の乳首より大きかった（ホルモンする前から）ので、女性から見られても自信はありました。
女子更衣室で声をかけられた場合の受け答えも非常に大事です。
そのためわたしは、性別適合手術を受ける前に、喉ぼとけをとる手術、声を高くする手術を受けました。
バレエ教室では性別適合手術後から女子更衣室を使うようになりました。バレエのお友達に支えられてトラブルなく何年も続けています。
わたしは性器違和は非常に強いほうだったので、子供の時から男性器を体内に押し込んでテープで止めていました。男性器が小さかったので可能でした。
まだ女子更衣室が使えず、男子更衣室のときから、体内に男性器を押し込んでいました。これはタックと呼ばれ、海外のトランスセクシャルもやることですが、わたしは誰からも教わることなく、難しい手技を子供のころからやっていました。
男子更衣室では男性から通報されたことが２回あります。”男子更衣室で女が着替えてるぞ！俺はトラブルに巻き込まれたくないんだ！”と受付に訴え、係の女性がここは男子更衣室です！とわたしに向かって叫ぶと、わたしは冷静に、これから女性になりますと答えました。
こんなわたしからすれば、セルフIDを使って女装男性が堂々と女子更衣室を使うなんて異常なことです。
ジェンダークリティカルとは何か
maikokarino
2022年7月21日 00:50
それは、身体違和がなかったことにされ、男性器はもうないにもかかわらず、まだ隠し持っていると言われるようになるからです。
睾丸もペニスもないのに、”ある”とデマを流す人がもう現れています。
皮膚は再利用する場合があるだけです。
短小で挿入できない人は、その後性別適合手術し、手術後１０数年たっています。その人にとって男性器は異物でしたので、女性器の形にする手術をしたのです。当然のことですが睾丸やペニスはありません。
にもかかわらず、存在しないものを”存在する”と主張するのはイデオロギーです。
手術してとっても、それでも”ある”というのは現実ではなく妄想です。
これもある種のイデオロギーです。
新種のTRAと言ってもいいかもしれません。
手術していない人の犯罪を手術した人たちのせいにしている例。つまりついてる人とついてない人は同じと考えているので、まさにTRAです。
（特例法は手術後しか適用されません）
このような新種のTRAのイデオロギーは手術要件撤廃につながります。
TRAも新種のTRAも共通点は身体違和が強い人の存在を認めないことです。
そのためどちらも手術自体無意味と考えています。
しかし、今まで身体違和が強い性同一性障害者は手術によって救われてきました。
性同一性障害についてDSM4で委員だったRay Blanchard 博士はいいます。
精神障害としての性同一性障害の疾患の存在を認めないこともTRAと同じくイデオロギーだと。
もし手術要件が撤廃されてしまうと、現在埋没して生活しているGIDの人たちは、過去を知る人物からのアウティングをもっと恐れなければならなくなります。
つまり、アウティングされた場合、手術して除去したものが、まだついているとみなされるようになるからです。
わたしが手術要件撤廃に反対する理由
maikokarino
2023年9月8日 11:07
ジェンダークリティカルで知られるキャスリーンストックでさえ、”ホルモン治療をして見分けがつかなければ”女子更衣室を使ってもよいと言っています。 ペニスの有無については質問されても答えを避けています。
しかし、日本のジェンダークリティカルなフェミニストは、はっきりペニスがない人のみと言っているようです。
日本のほうがよりジェンダークリティカル度が高いように思います。
理由を考えてみました。
１．日本には温泉文化がある。
２．かなまら祭りに違和感を感じない。子孫繁栄の祈願として性器がシンボル化されても違和感がない、つまり、無意識のうちに性器が性別のシンボルにもなってしまっている。
３．女装者が女子スペースで逮捕または書類送検された例がすでに多い。
文化的な面、実際の摘発件数の多さなどがあげられます。
もし、それでも説明できないほど、性器にこだわるジェンダークリティカルな人は、性同一性障害の反対の状態で生まれてきたと説明するしかないかもしれません。
日本のほうがイギリスよりジェンダークリティカル度が高い？
maikokarino
2022年7月21日 11:31
JP
0:00 / 14:35
【正直】MTFレズビアンさんについて語ります
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@user-oz3pn9fw6q
9 か月前
たまたま視聴して、とてもいい動画でした有難う御座います。 私も昔、mtfレズだと思い悩んで働けなくなった時期がありました。 体は男・性器は男・心は女・恋愛対象は女 でも苦悩・葛藤の中で自分の心の奥底に、別人格の女性がいました。 私の(もう一つの心・魂・守護霊的存在)に気が付きました。 私もノートで会話して、その人の恋愛対象は私と言われ感動しました。 私も、あなたが好きです。この体は私だけの物ではない、もっと自分自身の 体と心を大事にして、信念を持ち・誠心誠意お互い生きる事を決意しました。 今はXジェンダーみたいな感じで男性で生活して、たまの休日女装して別人格が 楽しめる様に生活してます。女子力、上がってます。(笑) 本当に言葉で簡単に言う・伝えるのが難しいですね。この問題!? ・・・最後の人の心を読む事は、自分の身を守る能力だと自分は思います。 (さわらぬ神に祟りなし)(口は災い元)(目は口ほどにものを言う)(バカにつける薬なし)など 人間関係が楽になります。
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@hanaandsienna2439
1 年前
MTFレズビアンの奥さんがいて幸せですよ(*´꒳`*)
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@user-nb5zd8ut2z
1 年前
男性である体に違和感をもっていて性別も変更しているが、 性的対象は女性であるMTFはいます。 自分の体が男性である事を嫌い、また、男性も嫌いなMTFはいるのです。 ですが、それを正直に言うことはできない！ この場合、ノーマルの側にもMTF側にもいくことができないのです。分かりますか？ どちらからも変態扱いされるからです。 大変に苦労するのです。この事をわかってもらいたい。
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@user-vz9sg1pu2u
1 年前
女性ホルモン始めてからは、恋愛って感覚が薄れました。パートナーはいるけど、相手がどう思ってるかは別にして男女の好きじゃなくて兄弟みたいな感覚です。 自分でも心のあり方が分からないから是非、まゆさんに心を読んで教えてほしいです。
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@stargiyanasstrick4305
1 年前
僕は色んな人がいて、色んな違いが合って良いと思います。 日本もここ最近になって、ジェンダーが取り上げれる用になりましたが。
と
が結婚も良いですし、
が
も多いに有りです。 そして肌の色が違う外国人が暮らせる社会を望んでいます。
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@RayMtF
4 か月前
私は、2次元の方なら、恋愛とかできるんですけど、過去に色々あったので、事務的な話ならできるんですが、発展的な話を男性の方とはあまりできません（そのトラウマを抱える前や、直感でこの人大丈夫そうって思う方は安心して話せる）。自分はMtXだと思っていて、自分の性器は嫌いなのでお金が貯まったらSRSをします、また恋愛する性別はどれでもいいっていう性的指向なので女性でも男性でもその他の性別の方でも私は、その人を愛せる自信があります！これは、本心です、最後の言葉の挑戦状を受けました！！ 長文失礼しました！
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@user-xn1xd5vu1y
1 年前
今回の動画って、かなり難しいですね。 そもそも恋愛を、言葉にすること自体が、困難ですから。 最後のほうは、少し怖かったです。 でも、まゆさん可愛いから、大丈夫です。 本日も動画ありがとうです。
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@user-gj1zg4hq1w
1 年前
色々あるですね、 多過ぎて何がなんだが？ でも勉強になりました。 後…能力者だと驚きです(°Д°) まゆさん、今日もありがとう
クロエさんにも宜しくお願いします
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@mtf3174
1 年前
まゆさんの言葉を聞いて、気付かされた事があります。私自身もMTFのレズビアンですが、逆に、MTFヘテロさんや、純女さんの気持ちはわからないのだと。私の場合、男性に対しては汚いとしか思えないので、男性に対して恋愛感情を抱くことがわからないから。 自己否定で生きてきて、初めて信じれる人に出会い、その方と付き合いたいと思い、嘘をついて、男を演じて付き合うのは失礼どころでは無いと気づき、ジェンダー外来に通う事にしました。 MTFレズビアンである事はカミングアウトし、まだ告白してはいませんが、その方のおかげで、自分を生きる勇気と覚悟をくれたので、その方には感謝しています。
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@mori_no
4 か月前
女性の体のフォルムが好きで女性も好きなので自分が女性になるのはもちろん好きでやってることですが私はAGなのかもしれません！でも純粋に落ち着くというのもあるので、MtFとAGが両方あるのかもって思います。そもそもレズビアンの時点でAGはあり得ますよね。自分の中に男性と女性が両方いる感じします。人格が別れてるかどうかの違いもあるのでは？と思います。
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@ui5568
1 年前
ダブルハートですね 共感できます
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@user-kq6mz5bp5x
10 か月前
まゆちゃん可愛いね
️
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@syomf5174
1 年前
MtFレズビアンの本物と偽物の違いはすごく簡単です。MtFレズは「自分の体が男であることに違和感＋恋愛対象が女性」ということなので、自分の体が女性であって、恋愛対象が女性であることが理想なのです。自分の体が女性であることが理想なので、当然自分のペ○スで挿入することは望んでいません。だって、自分の体の理想は女性なのですから。なので、挿入しようとしてくる人は皆偽物だと思います。自分が挿入することに疑いがなくて、恋愛対象が女性となれば、それは普通の男性です。そこがMtFレズと大きく違う点です。 MtFレズビアンの悩みは、女性から好かれた時どう対応するかということです。私は外見上男性で社会生活も男性です。でも、女性と付き合ってもうまくはいきません。相手の女性は当然挿入されたいなと期待するし、男性は挿入したいものだと本能的にも思っています。でも、私は毎日ペ○スに嫌悪を抱きながら生きているわけですから、そんな気持ちはまったく沸いてこないわけです。 ここで、普通のMtFであれば、同性愛者などを探せば、パートナーが見つかる希望はあるわけです。しかし、MtFレズは恋愛対象は女性なので、好きになるのは女性なのです。でも、女性の側は皆、自分（女性側）が挿入される側、彼は挿入したがっているという認識でいるので、どうやっても成立しないのです。 逆にMtFが満たされるとしたら、女性同士のレズビアンと同じような状態になれた時だと思います。それが叶えられることは限りなく難しいと思います。
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@kouhei9589
1 日前
自分は男性に性被害にあってから 男なのが苦痛です別に女性になりたいわけでは無いですが女性のことが好きです後スカートとかには全く興味無いのですが女性物の服の色や形が良いなと思います男性の服で良いと思えるデザインが女性物に比べて少ない気がしますスーツや学生服が苦痛でした メイクとかには全く興味無いですが 女性みたいなボブカットにしてみたいなと思ってましたでも男なので似合わないのでして無いです別に女性的な身体付きになりたいと思った事は有りませんが体毛と髭が思春期から今も苦痛でした何となくアソコがなくなって欲しいとずっと思ってますが金銭的に無理なのとどの様な精神状態になるか不安なので何もしてません女性特にMTFの方に惹かれます
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@user-jyanome-daisuki
9 か月前
腕時計の付け方が斬新で可愛いね。左下唇は如何かしたのかな？MTFレズってMTF同士ならMTF同士のホモセクシャルで特に問題ないけど、相手が真正女子なら何か性的倒差感（つまり、変態中の変態）がするね。
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@tamagoboro888
1 年前
女の子かわいいから憧れちゃう
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@skylovin32
1 年前
初めてコメントします。私は最近になって漸くMTFレズビアンという自分が極端な少数派である事を認識しました。最近そういう人が増えているように感じるのはネットのお陰で情報に接する頻度が飛躍的に跳ね上がったことにより潜在的には以前から一定数いたMTFレズビアンが自分もそうだったと気いたということてはないでしょうか？自分もその一人ですが。ＭＴＦレズビアンの特徴を一言で表すと男性的なものへの嫌悪だとおもいます。自分は男のいない環境に身を置きたいと常々思っています。自分の身体が男性であることが許せないのは勿論ですが男性がとにかく好きではありません。特に体臭ですね。男だけの部屋に閉じ込めれれるとその臭さに気が狂いそうになります。体毛も醜くて嫌いですね。てすから女性でもムダ毛処理をしていない人には嫌悪感を覚えます。自分も綺麗な女性になり綺麗な女性に囲まれて暮らしたいと常に思っています。女性でも美しくない方やガサツで清潔感のない方は好きではありません。不細工な女性と綺麗なニューハーフさんなら迷わずニューハーフさんとお付き合いする方を選びます。自分にとっては美醜も重要な判断基準です。ではジャニーズタレントの美しい男性と不細工な女性の究極の選択ならどうか？答えはどちらもノーサンキューです。 まゆさんですか？結婚して欲しいと思うほどです。 前置きがながくなりましたが私は睾丸摘出と女性ホルモン投与を近い将来始めるつもりですがその先へ進むつもりはありません。性別適合手術や戸籍変更は全く頭にありません。ただし名前は男でも女でも通用する名前に変更届けをするつもりです。女性として普通に生活していきたいからです。 美しいまゆさんは私にとっては目標であるのと同時に恋愛対象でもあります。ですから両方の視点でこれからも視聴させていただきたいと思っています。初めてで長文の自分語り大変失礼しました。 応援しています。
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@user-bx2zp4co3s
1 か月前
クロエちゃん…MtFレズビアンなんだ…なんか面白い
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@user-yx6db8cv7n
1 年前
ごめんね。わたし、MTFびあんなの。男性とのドロドロした恋愛は想像絶すんです…
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@user-iw1uc7bw4s
1 年前
MTF？それが分かりません
️ 分からない用語？が多々あります。 君が好きで見てます。けど、分からない言葉がようけあります。できる範囲で説明が欲しいです
解りたいです。
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文字起こし
0:00
もう
0:04
はいみなさんこんにちは眉です
0:06
たまにさここにマイクがあることを忘れて
0:08
あの襟付きの服とか着てここに育っちゃっ
0:12
てさわさわさわさわ
0:14
なんか
0:15
マイクに音が入るっていう現象がありまし
0:17
た申し訳ございませんでした
0:20
ちょっとこれからマイクの音場所も意識し
0:22
てやっていきたいとおもいます
0:24
ということで今回のお話なんですけどあの
0:27
ね前回
0:30
いつだったかな当事者と一緒に女子ってお
0:33
いで使えないようというような内容の音
0:36
動画を出させていただきましたそれになん
0:39
かたくさんの舞剣や姉まあ賛否両論
0:42
いただきまして
0:44
で
0:45
こういうコメントがあったんですよ
0:47
まゆさんは mtf レズビアンさんの方
0:50
にちょっと変形を持ちすぎじゃないですか
0:52
みたいな
0:54
事を言われちゃったんですよね
0:57
確かに最初は不信感から入ってだんだん
1:01
慣れてくるようというようなお話させて
1:03
いただいたんですけどじゃあそうそも私も
1:06
と男の窯 you were mtf
1:09
レズビアンさんのことをどう思ってるの
1:11
この際はっきりいようじゃないか
1:15
me
1:17
なんかねあのド結構にいろんな意見頂き
1:19
ましてまごめんなさい猫あの
1:22
いろんな意見でちょっと
1:25
なんか色んな話が
1:27
ねちょっと
1:28
戦争が起きる前に鎮火させていただきまし
1:32
たコメントできないように
1:33
そしていただいたんですけどあの
1:37
ねえねえ
1:38
なかにはそういった方々と麻生舞ねさんも
1:42
おかしいですよって言われたりしたんです
1:43
よ
1:44
人と何か付き合う相手とか別にさあ人から
1:47
言われるものじゃないし私だって行
1:50
んまっ猫ホ
1:52
まあ6月にパス度があんまり
1:54
高くない方が
1:56
おばあちゃんこれこれ教えてあれ教えて
1:58
今度はそこいきましょうこれいきましょう
2:00
って言ったら photo おりの年さあ
2:01
普通に考えてだからまあ人の人間関係に
2:05
そういうことを言うのは私はよくないか
2:08
なーって思いますんはいということで
2:11
じゃあ本来の方に入りたいと思います
2:14
えっ私がある mtf leslie の
2:17
さんについて思うことをはっきりと言い
2:19
ます
2:21
またちょっと前置きが長くなるんだけど
2:24
その前にある前提として一つの
2:28
お話をしてから前提として一つお話をさせ
2:31
て頂いてから本題に入りますね
2:34
えっと
2:35
今私の周りだけかなぁや
2:39
基本的にその mtf ですって公言し
2:42
てる人に
2:45
好摩プロフィール欄とか見ると私の周りだ
2:48
と普通に mtf のヘテロですまあ mt
2:51
付で男性が好きですという方より
2:54
私の周りだけかもわからないから一概には
2:56
言えないんだけど私が見る限りだと
2:59
mtf ですレズビアンですとか mtf
3:02
です bye 祝汁ですとか mts です
3:05
パン宿舎ですという方がね m 邸夫婦
3:08
ヘテロ三友居
3:10
多いってかもう最近に塗って考えに多いん
3:12
ですよ
3:13
うん
3:15
めちゃめちゃいるうじゃうじゃいるん
3:18
そうだけどその中にはやっぱりその下心で
3:23
mtf と名乗っておいた方が都合がいい
3:26
からっていう変態さんももちろんいるって
3:28
いうことは確かなことなんですよ
3:31
だから私はその人を mtf レズビアン
3:34
だとは思えません
3:35
mtf ではないと思います
3:38
角女装癖の
3:40
[音楽]
3:41
女装癖を持った女性が好きなちょっと変態
3:44
さんみたいな感じ
3:46
で思ってるんですけどそこの線引きって
3:50
なかなか難しいんですよね
3:53
例えば私の
3:55
ツイッターの
3:57
フォロワーさんの中にその
4:02
mtf です将来は手術してもと男の子の
4:06
レズ専用の av 女優になりたいです
4:09
って言う人がいるな
4:12
私これ見て私ね心読め読めちゃう人だから
4:17
この人ってデー
4:20
自分がやっぱり女性になった方がいい
4:24
都合が良いスタ心で都合がいいからって
4:27
思っちゃうんだわからないねうんその人は
4:31
なんて関してくるかわかんないけどでも
4:32
まあそういう人がいるよっていうお話です
4:36
はいじゃあまあねこういった前を切って
4:39
いうかまぁ前提の話は置いといて
4:41
私が
4:43
えっと mtf レズビアンさんに対して
4:45
思っていることをはっきりと言わせて
4:47
いただきます
4:49
he
4:52
mtf レズビアンさんへ
4:57
私は mdf レズビアンさんの苦悩とか
5:00
葛藤とか辛さを理解してあげることができ
5:04
ない
5:05
そこがつってももどかし
5:07
私は存在をね否定否定は絶対しませんが
5:12
むしろ肯定してます
5:14
mt フル mtf でレズビアンさんな
5:17
んだ
5:18
ものだじゃあ
5:19
ね大変な思いして生きてるんだねっていう
5:22
ような気持ちです
5:25
だから
5:26
その気持ちが
5:28
ねわかってあげられるんだったらわかって
5:30
あげたい理解したい応援したい救いたいっ
5:34
て思っています
5:37
あのだってさん
5:39
考えてみて私は mtf
5:42
で
5:43
元男の子で
5:45
ダンス男性彼ら女性になりました男性世代
5:49
できなかった恋愛を女性になったという
5:52
ことで少しハードルが低くなって
5:55
ね男性の方と今と今女性だからね男性とか
5:58
たとこ付き合えるって言う
6:02
ね何かこうハードルが低くなるわけじゃ
6:04
ないですかだけどその mtf レズビアン
6:08
さんっていうのは
6:09
その自分の政治には女性なんだけど女性が
6:13
月っていうことは
6:15
なんかこうセクマイが傘に重なり合ってる
6:18
みたいな
6:21
その
6:23
私はトランスジェンダーというだけで
6:25
ヘッドなんですよだけど
6:28
その mtf レズビアンなんていうのは
6:30
トランスジェンダーの上にさらにまたれず
6:33
b ハムっていうね lgbt が
6:36
乗っかっちゃってさらにね苦痛が倍増して
6:39
いると私は思うんですよ
6:42
だからその辛さって私には分からないので
6:45
あのねぇ理解してあげたいなぁも大変
6:47
だろうなっても応援してるっていうような
6:50
気持ちです
6:51
これが正味の話です
6:55
だから全然私はやめてーフレーズ減産を
6:57
否定するっていうとかいう気持ちは
7:00
まったくなくてただ一部にそういうふうに
7:03
ね悪いことをしちゃうっていう
7:06
悪いことしちゃう
7:08
mgf をなどって mtf でもない人
7:11
が mtf を名乗って自分の都合のいい
7:13
ように
7:15
ね変態さんがいるよっていうような
7:19
そういう人がねいるとまた
7:21
mtf レスビアンさんもねかなり
7:24
肩身の狭い思いもすると思いますし
7:29
やっぱりはいだろうなっていうふうに思い
7:31
ます私には姉計り知れない苦悩とかがある
7:34
んだろうなっていうふうに思います
7:38
せっかく女性になったと
7:40
っていうのに
7:42
恋愛したいってね乗っても
7:45
普通の恋愛じゃなくてさーやっぱり同性愛
7:47
っていうことになっちゃうからさまたそれ
7:49
も次から次へと送るなんか問題っていうの
7:53
は感じがして
7:57
出目面白い話すると
7:59
あの私の
8:02
別人格っていうかまぁ私私だけど私じゃ
8:05
ないクロエちゃんっていう私の中にいる
8:09
まあ皆さんもご存知だったりご存じなかっ
8:11
たりすると思うんだけどクロエちゃんって
8:13
いう子がいるんだけど
8:15
あのその子が
8:17
一応は私ではあるんだけど私は全く違う
8:21
なんか価値観っていうか
8:24
思ってて
8:25
あの子はねえ政治には女性で恋愛対象は
8:29
無いんだって恋愛はしない恋愛は嫌い
8:33
レイアいたしはないみたいな人となんか
8:35
こういう中通しになるなんてありえない
8:38
みたいなこと言う人なんだよ
8:40
でっ
8:41
だけど体の関係を持つとしたら
8:45
女性がいいって言うんだよねっていうのは
8:49
まあこれねあのクロエのいないところで
8:54
クレマいるんだけど
8:57
ねぇなんか勝手に黒いのこと話していいの
8:59
かどうかわからないけども話している最中
9:02
に多分
9:03
言わないでっていうことだったら私を子を
9:05
止めてただ人格高台へねしてくると思うん
9:09
だけどまぁ多分と見に来ないということを
9:10
話していくことだと思うんだけどなぁこと
9:13
ねノートやり取りしてると私はあっあれ
9:16
からだの関係は女性等
9:19
したいと言う
9:20
なんでえって言うと私は何か恋愛対象が
9:25
ないなかで私眠れちゃん私私だけが
9:31
唯一好きになる存在で
9:35
唯一
9:37
カポーン
9:38
恋愛とかじゃないけど唯一
9:41
まあ何か良い
9:43
[音楽]
9:44
興奮する見なかったことを言うんですよ
9:48
あの子
9:50
唯一心を開いて唯一なんかこう
9:52
可愛い口思えるみたいなこと言ってくれ
9:54
てるんだ米本ありがとうございますので
9:56
撮ってその子が言うには
10:00
以下のおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおお
10:02
私
10:04
だってひとりの体で
10:07
2人が使ってるからどっちから子の身体に
10:09
欲情しても重なり合うことができないから
10:12
あの子は
10:14
に誰か
10:16
別の女性の人を等
10:18
その私を投影させて
10:22
そういうか
10:23
その女性を私に見立ててそういうことをし
10:26
たいというふうに言ってるんだよね
10:29
だからあの子のねっ辛さというかあの子が
10:32
辛いのことがわからないけど僕の気持ちも
10:34
は陸理解してあげたいんだけどこれだから
10:36
別人格の私もね mtf でレズビアンっ
10:41
ていうかまぁ mdf で体の関係を持ち
10:43
としたら女性って言う
10:47
まあ私と真逆なんだけどって言うから私は
10:51
もうねあの全然否定的な意見は戦前あり
10:54
ませんよ ef 列年生に
10:56
ですねあの前のトイレの動画とかま同族
11:00
経営をの動画で動向を見て私のどこを見て
11:04
英検後あると思いますと言ったのは私も
11:07
こんなに負けずにとりあえずそういうふう
11:10
に見受けられちゃったなら仕方ないよね見
11:13
てるほうが判断ていることがいいです
11:15
でも私は一切
11:17
ねっ
11:18
あの怪しい塗って4本人に対しては婦人科
11:21
わくけどそれっていうのね立地とした方々
11:25
に終わった時に
11:27
先ほども言ったように大変だねーも分かっ
11:30
てあげたいけど買ってくれ振ってください
11:32
という気持ちの方が強いのです
11:34
っていうお話です
11:36
疲れたん
11:39
では食べております
11:41
[音楽]
11:47
入ってきたん誰か使ってみたいと思います
11:50
ってことで今感動かが良ければチャンネル
11:52
登録高評価コメントお待ちしております
11:55
でえっと
11:57
ツイッターインスタグラムティックトック
11:58
やってるのでぜひ概要ラム
12:01
なっていますいやー各 sns 心を
12:03
よろしくお願いします
12:06
あと
12:07
ボーイコネっていうアプリです日記とかお
12:09
得とかアップロードしてます
12:11
サブちゃんネルギー
12:13
チーフまた間違いか概要欄にサブ
12:15
チャンネルもあるのですぜひ見てみてねっ
12:17
てことでじゃあねー
12:20
の前に
12:22
私
12:24
いろいろ
12:25
同族嫌悪
12:27
経験をしてきて
12:28
[音楽]
12:29
で今では色々人の心を操ったぎ
12:33
人の心を読むは勉強をしています
12:37
かなり
12:39
僕と読めるような
12:41
[音楽]
12:43
だから私はたまに
12:46
カマをかけるような
12:48
動画を撮るんですよ
12:51
この動画を上げてこういうふうに反応して
12:53
くる人はこういう人っていうような感じで
12:59
その動画内で
13:01
マインドを操って
13:05
もうしてくる様子を窺うような動画を撮る
13:07
3
13:10
カマをかけるような動画を撮る
13:13
今なくというとコメントが減っちゃうかも
13:15
しれないけど
13:18
でも本心で書いてる人は私は分かるんだ
13:21
けど本心
13:24
なんかこう
13:25
卵の殻に
13:28
本心という卵の殻で覆われた
13:31
中身はまだ半熟状態の本音
13:36
クシャって潰すと
13:39
本音の本音ん
13:42
[音楽]
13:43
を
13:45
私は見ることができるので
13:48
私の前ではごまかせない
13:50
ってことを言っておきますねん
13:53
アノマリー
13:54
もうみんなおぐらーずバックしてくれて
13:56
いると嬉しい
13:59
だけど本当にあのあれですよあっえっと
14:02
気持ちがこもってるなーとかあっこれは
14:04
本心で言ってるなっていうのは私わかるの
14:06
で
14:09
だけど
14:11
この動画に対するこういう反応の仕方でて
14:13
たかって思う
14:17
私はカマをかけたので
14:20
それは本心なの
14:24
[音楽]
14:26
勉強しておいてよかっ
14:28
はいということでじゃんっ
14:30
[音楽]
【正直】MTFレズビアンさんについて語りますより自動文字おこし日本語
女好きのMTFが増えている問題をとりあげてる若いMTFもいます。
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MD_SqAFWEok
この子は偉いなと思いました。顔出しでこの問題を言えてるから。わたしは顔出しで言えませんが、彼女と同じ意見です。
若い世代の自称MTFに女好きが非常に増えているそうです。
わたしがGID学会や性同一性障害とともに生きる会で情報を集めていた１２年前ころは、MTFは男好きが６０パーセント近く、バイセクシャルが３０パーセント、女好きその他は１０パーセントくらいというデータが出ていたと思います。これはどこかのクリニックが出した集計だったと思います。 素人の”当事者”がとったアンケートではありませんので、実際ホルモン治療などをする人の割合だと思います。
今は女好きのほうが多いらしいのでわたしもびっくりしてます。
MTFの定義が医療従事者と素人の間で違ってきてしまったのでしょう。
昔はMTFの定義は自認ではなく、医師が書く言葉でした。だからクリニックに通ってる人のことだけでした。当時はまだ女装者はMTFという言葉をしりませんでした。最近は一生クリニックに行くつもりもない女装者が自分もMTFっていうようになってきているから統計が違うのかもしれません。そのため、女好きが増えたのだと思います。こういう人たちはセルフID問題を起こす可能性があります。
もう一つの理由は前回の投稿に書いたようにAGPの人たちが中年くらいになってクリニックに行く人たちが増えたのだと思います。
AGP当事者で医師のAnne Lawrence はAGPの人はたとえ性別適合手術をうけてもレズビアンから愛されずパートナーを見つけることは困難だと言っています。MTFレズビアンを夢見てトランスするのはやめたほうがいいという注意みたいなことが、医療者側か、トランスセクシャル当事者団体の間でされるといいかもしれません。一人で生きていくAGPの方が性別適合手術を受けて女性になっても問題ないと思います。
わたしもレズビアンの経験はないのですが、トランス途中でホルモン治療中の同じMTFの友達とたくさんキスして恋愛感情っぽくなったことがありました。下の関係でエッチは不可能でしたが、あれほど情熱的なキスはその後付き合った男性とのキスより深いものでした。わたしは彼女のトランス開始前の男性の姿を知っているので、その彼のことが好きだったのだと思います。お互い背が高いのでデカ女コンビと呼ばれていました。
その後付き合った男性とは普通の男女の関係です。
日本の若いMTFも問題認識している
maikokarino
2022年8月4日 03:37
RayBlanchardの分類でいえばgay submissive（トランス後HSTS) で子供のうちから女性的なメジャーなトランスセクシャルもジェンダークリティカルのようです。
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blaire_White
ブレアホワイトは２０歳ころホルモン治療開始したトランスセクシャルで政治的には中道右派 ジェンダーイデオロギーに反対してます。彼女は生物学的には男性と認識し、トランスした理由もジェンダーイデオロギーではなく、自分の脳が生物学的に女性にあっていたからと答えています。 母親の妊娠中のホルモンシャワーのことを言っているのだと思います。
（脳細胞も生物学的には染色体がXYなのですが、そこにはふれず）
彼女はトランスした理由は社会に溶け込むためと言っています。
Matt Walshのドキュメンタリー映画"What is a woman ?" ↓
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZPMS6cSYGQ
Matt WalsがLGBTQアクティビストAddison Rose Vincentに質問します。
"What is a woman ?"
AddisonはNon-binaryだからそれを答える立場ではないとしましたが、Mattはあなたがトランス女性は女性と言ったのだから、女性とは何かについて答えるべきだと追及します。
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZ9MM8CSZD8
Mattは生物学的なfemale がwoman だと言い、addisonに女性とは何かと聞きます。
addisonは返答に窮し苦し紛れに答えます。女性とは人によって違うと。
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAZjoPaXwt8
この動画の最後のほうで、
女性とは何かに答えられないアクティビストAddisonを見てBlair Whiteは
It means you don't have to be a woman to difine what a woman is.
”女性を定義するために女性になる必要はない”
とっても鋭い指摘だと思います。
トランスセクシャルなら共感できるコメントではないでしょうか？
追記；
Addisonはnon-binaryなので、代名詞はtheyと呼んでほしいと言っていますが、Blairは生物学的な性別のみとしているので、non-binaryも否定しています。
英語だとhe/sheで困るのでtheyを使うわけですが、日本語はどっちで呼んだほうがいいかわからない場合、〇〇さんと名前で呼ぶのが普通なので、英語ほど代名詞の問題は起きてないように思います。
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/national-coming-out-day-ad...
non-binaryの方が法的認証で第三の性別が必要なら与えてあげたほうがいいと思います。身体が男性のnon-binaryの人が女子スペースを使うわけではないので、女性の人権問題にはならないと思います。
そのため否定するのは可愛そうだと思います。
What is a womanに対してのトランスセクシャルの反応
maikokarino
2022年8月4日 18:56
この表題を見ても日本のフェミニストはなんのことかわからないと思います。海外のジェンダークリティカルフェミニストを追ってる人はピンとくるかもしれない。彼女たちはこぞってRay Blanchardをトランスセクシャルの分類に使いたがります。時代遅れと思われていたのに。なぜか？
性自認という言葉を使っていないからです。
現在のICD11で性別不合の定義はジェンダーとセックスの不一致が診断の根拠です。ジェンダーを使わないとトランスセクシャルが定義できないため、それが身体に違和感がない人にも拡大されてトランスジェンダーが生まれました。ジェンダーという言葉を使わなければ、トランスジェンダーは存在せず、女子スペースに入ってくるトランスジェンダーはいなくなります。
Ray Blanchardの古いトランスセクシャルの分類はＭＴＦはウケのゲイまたはＡＧＰ(Autogynephilia)のみと分類しました。要するに性指向で分類したわけです。
性自認という言葉は使われませんのでこれを採用していればトランス女性は女性なんて叫ぶ自称トランス女性軍団は現れなかったのです。
ジェンダークリティカルフェミニストHelen JoyceのTransという本ではRay Blanchardの分類が使われ、Anne LawrenceのMen trapped in Men's bodies が引用されAGPが説明されています。
そのためか、滅多に自分のことを公開で話さなかったAnne Lawrence 71歳が今年になってインタビューに答えています。
AGPは現在パラフィリアに属していますが、見直しが必要です。生まれつきの性指向だからです。最近では性神経学者Debra Sohも生まれつきであると言っています。
Ray Blanchardの分類を採用していれば、女子スペースに入ってくるトランスセクシャルは性別適合すみの元ウケのゲイと、自分を愛するAGPだけになります。
Debbie Haytonが最近AGPだとカムアウトしたのも偶然とは思えません。イギリスで自称トランス女性軍団（身体は男性のまま）がセルフIDを求めるに反対するジェンダークリティカルフェミニストたちがRay Blanchard に注目するなら、恥ずべき存在だと隠していたAGPの人たちがカムアウトしてもいいのではないかという雰囲気になったのだと思います。
AGPでも身体違和が強い場合は性別適合手術が認められるべきで実際手術をうけているのですが、ジェンダークリニックでは性自認に関心が向き、自分の身体が性的対象になっている人たちが結構？いることに気をつけてみていませんでした。
ジェンダー廃止を見据えたジェンダークリティカル運動の影響が広がれば、性自認という言葉は使われなくなり性指向と身体違和のみでトランスセクシャルを定義する時代がくるかもしれません。
Ray Blanchard、Ann Lawrenceが求めていたようにAGPの再定義が必要です。生まれつきの性指向で重症なAGPは思春期前にも身体違和の症状がでるからです。たぶんパラフィリアではなくなる日が来ると思います。
AGP当事者で医師のAnn LawrenceはAGPも早期治療が大切で、思春期にpuberty blocker(現在は副作用や誤診のリスクが高くなるのでこの薬を否定する医師が多い）を適用させてパス度をあげれば女性として生きていけると言っています。AGPの人はそれが恥ずべきことと考えて性別移行が遅れる傾向があり、そのため性別適合手術を受けたのに男性として生きている人もいるほどです。
maikokarino
2022年7月30日 22:25
ジェンダークリティカルなフェミニストをTERFと呼ぶことを避けるためにこの記事を書いています。
TERFと呼ぶ前に当事者は内省すべき点があります。
１．昔は男だけど女装している。だから男子トイレを使うという”古き良き女装者”はどこに消えたのか？ 女装者というと日陰者扱いされるのでトランスジェンダーだと名乗っているのではないか？ やってることは変わってないのにいつの間にか性自認が男性から性自認が女性にすり替えていないか？
２. ジェンダークリニックに行ったこともないし、一生ホルモン治療など受けるつもりもないのに、勝手にMTFだと自称していないか？
MTFとは身体を移行する人のことだったはず。診断を受けるためにクリニックに行く人のことです。 診断されたくない、もしくは、クリニックに行っても性別違和（性別不合）ではないと言われるのを知っているにもかかわらず、女装というと格好悪いから、勝手にMTFを名乗っていないか？ MTFという名称はカッコいい名称ではないのに、女装よりはカッコいいと思い込み勝手にMTFを名乗っていないか？
LGBTブームに乗って、いつのまに勝手に自称する名称をすり替えた人たちがたくさんいます。
これらの問題点は、性自認が男性だったはずの人たちが、性自認が女性にすりかわっていることです。
これらの人たちは、女性の服を着た人は性自認が女性だと思っています。
これは、性同一性という正しい用語が使われなかったのも原因の一つです。
これらの人たちに、服を脱いでもあなたは女性なのか？と聞いてあげてください。
当事者側の問題点について
maikokarino
2022年7月21日 12:33
Debra sohは世界で注目されている性神経科学者です。オールトラリアのHolly Lawford-Smith（ジェンダークリティカルな大学教授）がジェンダー廃止が可能な根拠としてDebra sohの著書The end of gender をとりあげています。
Debra sohの影響力はかなりありそうです。
彼女は宗教に影響されていないリベラルな科学者だからです。
基本的に彼女は大人のトランスセクシャルを認めています。（トランスセクシャルがトランスすることはサポートするが、スポーツ大会にでるのは認めない）
性別は生物学的なものとしています。
ただ彼女は第三の性別を認めていません。手術を受けられないトランス女性を第三の性別に入れる（インド、ネパール）の存在を知らないようです。
セルフIDを阻止するには、理論武装が必要です。
感情論では勝てません。
日本の反セルフIDの団体も彼女を研究してほしいと思います。
Debra sohを記事にしない日本のフェミニストって・・
maikokarino
2022年7月25日 12:47
トランスマーチはこういうことが起こることが予想されたのでGIDの人は参加しないように呼びかけておいて正解でした。でもジェンダーイデオロギーにはまっているGIDもいたかもしれません。
そもそもフェミニストを敵にまわして女性と言えるのかというごくごく当たり前の常識というものがあります。
特例法が出来る前から本当の性同一性障害（性器に違和感のある）は戸籍が変えられなくても手術をしてました。
わたしも戸籍が変えられなくても手術をしていました。手術をしても自分が女性として社会適合できているか様子をみてから戸籍を変えました。
女性としての社会適合の第一条件がフェミニストを敵にまわさないでした。
わたしは手術前はもちろん、手術をしてもしばらくトイレはみんなのトイレでした。 温泉は入ったことはありません。
トランスマーチの主催者は、手術しないで男性器つきのまま、女子スペースに入ることを目的とし、歯向かうものには、”F..k TERFs"と罵って良いと公言しました。
女性として社会適合する意思が全くなく、暴力的な言葉で押し通そうとする姿勢がはっきりしてきました。
NoセルフIDの会が最初に抗議したようです
maikokarino
2022年11月17日 17:05
さかのぼるとそれは”くたばれGID”です。女装者は性器に違和感のある性同一性障害者の存在を否定するために、”くたばれGID”といい始めました。２０１８年ころだったでしょうか？ 当時私は、女装者がジョークでやっているものとばかり思っていました。
しかし、”くたばれ”というのは本当の脅しだったのです。
くたばれGIDと言った人たちがトランスマーチの主催者です。
くたばれGIDという言葉がFuck TERFsという言葉につながったとみて間違いありません。
手術をして女性として社会適合する人たちに最初に嫉妬し存在を否定し、次に生物学的女性の存在そのものを否定しようとしはじめたのです。
言葉の暴力によってすべて自分たちの思うように押し通せばよいという発想で、まさに男性ホルモンがある人達らしい行動です。
２０１８年ころ当時性同一性障害とともに生きる会の山本蘭さんは最後まで脱病理化に反対していました。彼女は女装者がいずれ性同一性障害者を否定するだけでなく、女性の存在そのものを脅かす存在になるだろうと予感していたと思います。
脱病理化つまり、身体に違和感のない女装者を女性として認めろという運動はさらに激化するでしょう。
最初に彼らが否定したのは性同一性障害者の存在で、次に女性の存在そのものを否定してきたということです。
欧米のトランス女性を名のるトランス自認男性たちは、もっと恐ろしい言葉をつかって女性を脅してきました。 その結果、女性の安全が脅かされ、そろそろ”自称で性自認は女性”というのは認めないようにしようという流れも始まっています。
トランスセクシャルとトランスジェンダーは違います。
前者は社会は正しいので自分の身体が間違っていると感じます。後者は自分の身体は正しくて社会が間違っていると感じます。
前者は社会適合しようとし、後者は社会構造を破壊しようとします。
根本が違うのです。
１０年前はトランスセクシャルとトランスジェンダーは別のカテゴリーでした。ところがいつのまにかトランスジェンダーの中にトランスセクシャルは含まれているとされたことが根本の間違いでした。
社会適合するトランスセクシャルと反社会的行動をとるトランスジェンダーは全く反対の存在です。
トランスマーチの暴力的な言葉の源流
maikokarino
2022年11月18日 11:43
トランスジェンダー国会ではトランスジェンダーがトランスイデオロギーを議員たちに吹き込むことに成功しました。これはセルフIDへの一歩でした。
トランスジェンダーは手術を強制されていないにもかかわらず、強制されていると嘘をつき、手術を望んでいるトランスセクシャルを否定し、トランスセクシャルはトランスジェンダーではない（手術を望んでいる）のに、トランスジェンダーと同じで手術を望んでいないかのように国会議員に説明しました。これはつまり、セルフIDへつなげる巧妙な手口でした。
わたしはツイッターで日本のGCの女性たちの動向を観察していました。彼女たちはとてもよく海外の事情を調べていました。
彼女たちは海外では女装者は出生証明書を女性にすることができ、女子スペースで性犯罪を行っているという記事を丁寧に集めていました。
ところがツイッターで彼女たちが出来たことはせっかく集めた”トランスジェンダー”の犯罪を日本では”トランスセクシャル”の犯罪だとすり替えることでした。 実際、戸籍変更すみのトランスセクシャルの性犯罪を提示できないにも関わらず。 なぜ、このようなことが起こったかというと、GCの女性は手術を望むトランスセクシャルと手術を望まないトランスジェンダーの区別がつかず、同じだと考えていることと、悲しいことに、性犯罪の傾向があるトランスジェンダーは手術などするつもりもないのに、自分はトランスセクシャルだとか、性同一性障害だとか嘘をつく傾向があるためです。なぜ、彼らが嘘をつくかというと、女装というと変態扱いされるので、TSやGIDだと嘘をついたほうが変態だと思われないと考えるからです。
きちっと調べるためには、手術済で、戸籍変更すみ（二人の医師の診断が必要）の人たちにどれだけ性犯罪者がいるかです。 それらの多くのMTFは性対象は男性で男性と付き合ったり結婚したりしているというのに。しかもレイプされる側なのに。
極端なツイッターでの女性の妄想は、”チンコ切った男は男だから、切ったチンコ隠し持ってて女をレイプする”でした。 恐ろしいホラーのような妄想です。
手術済で戸籍変更すみのMTFはホラーのように語られることがほとんでした。
このように、日本のGCの女性たちは、セルフID反対だったはずが、障害者差別をするだけになっていきました。もともと障害者差別する人たちは、トランスセクシャルが性同一性障害という精神障害だということを否定し、肝心な部分がTRAと同じ考えになっていきました。（欧米でも良心的な医師は今でもトランスセクシャリズムは精神障害だといい、イデオロギーではないと言っています）
実際、女子スペースを守る会、NoセルフIDの会、Female liberation jpの三団体とも、トランスジェンダー国会に反対しませんでした。
その目的はセルフIDだったというのに。（2022年11月4日の時点で、３団体ともトランスジェンダー国会に対してなんの抗議文も書いていませんでした）
そのため、手術をして社会適合しているトランスセクシャルからみると、セルフIDに反対していたはずのGCの女性たちはTRAを歓迎しているように見えるのです。彼女たちが出来たのは、女装者の性犯罪を手術済のトランスセクシャルのせいだと責任転嫁することだけでした。
カナダの有名な医師のRayBlanchard博士は、TRAがイデオロギーを言うように一部のGCもイデオロギーしか言えないので同じだといいます。なぜなら、どちらも医学的根拠のある精神障害としての性同一性障害を否定するからであると述べています。
GCの女性たちは、トランス女性という男性が怖いので、怖くない医師や、性別適合手術済のトランスセクシャルを叩きます。
GCの女性たちにとっていまだに”女性の敵は女性”なのでしょう。トランス女性という男性には何も抗議しないのです
日本のGC
maikokarino
2022年11月4日 17:59
女性スペースを守ろうとしていたはずのGCの方たちは最近手術要件を撤廃する後押しをするようになりました。なぜかというと、手術自体をしてはいけないものと言い始めたからです。欧米で手術要件が撤廃されたのもこういったGCの方たちが手術反対派に回ったからです。これらのGCの方たちは性同一性障害を全く知らず、女装者と同じと考えているので、身体違和など存在しないと考えています。社会的役割に違和感を感じている人が手術するなどという、あり得ない話をするようになりました。性同一性障害者は子供のころから大人になっても、身体違和で苦しみます。社会的役割など感じたことはありません。学生にとっては勉強することが役割、社会人にとっては働くことが役割だからです。GCは男女で身体と関係ないジェンダーの役割が違うと勘違いしている人が多く、TRAに非常によく似ています。 まさにGCは身体違和がないトランスジェンダーと同じ土台を持っています。そのため、上記のツイートのように、手術すべきではない、役割から解放されればよいと言うのです。これは身体違和がないトランスジェンダーと同じ言葉です。性同一性障害者は身体違和で苦しみます。そのため手術が必要です。社会的役割など関係ありません。このように女性スペースを守るはずだった人たちが、社会的役割を変えればすむと考え、性同一性障害者から手術を受ける権利を奪い、手術要件を撤廃し、セルフIDへと導きます。性同一性障害の専門医のカナダ人医師RayBlanchardも、一部のGCは性同一性障害の存在を否定し、TRAと同じくらいイデオロギー的だといいます。性同一性障害者が、女装者と同じと考えるGCは”くたばれGID”派と呼ばれます。
手術要件を撤廃するGCの方たち
maikokarino
2023年10月7日 11:34
TSは本来GCなので欧米でもトランスセクシャルはジェンダーとセックスは別と言う人が多いです。
欧米でもTSの活動家とGCの女性たちの言っていることは同じだったりする場合も多いです。でも共闘は出来なかったからgender ideologyが蔓延したのだと思います。
日本でもGCの女性はTSと共闘を拒否しています。共闘しないことで、gender ideologyに負けると思います。
なぜGCの女性はTSと共闘することを拒否するのか？
理由を考えました。
１．GCはGCではない。
２．GCは精神疾患を持つものに偏見を持っている場合が多い。
１についてですが、GCの女性の多くはトランスセクシャルとトランスジェンダーの区別ができません。つまりセックスとジェンダーの区別が出来ていないのです。
２についてですが、TSと共闘するためにはTSの昔の病名性同一性障害が精神障害だとして障害者として手術すみのTSを受け入れる必要があります。そのためTSでGCと共闘しようとする人はいまでも病理モデルである性同一性障害者だと言っています。これは欧米のTSもGCと同じことを言う人は自分たちをmental disorderだと言います。
しかし日本のGCの女性の中には、精神障害者を”変質者”と呼ぶものが多く、自らの偏見のため共闘を拒否します。
以上二つの理由でGCの女性たちはTSとの共闘を拒否します。
共闘できないためGender Ideologyの蔓延は防げないと思われます。
TSとの共闘を拒否しているのはGCの女性たちです。
TSとGCの共闘が不可能な理由
maikokarino
2022年10月21日 17:26
TS二人が最近のジェンダーイデオロギーの問題を語る
https://youtu.be/MD7sZi6mk2M
2:45 （TGは）わたしたちのような外観になることは特権だというけれど特権ではない。失ったものも多い。
代名詞についてわたしたちの代名詞は何ですかとは聞かれない。（パスしているから）
4;40 わたし（右のMTFTS)がトランス始めた6,7年前は、自分をトランスジェンダーだと名乗った。当時はトランスセクシャルという名前が時代遅れだと言われたから。しかし今わたしはTS（トランスセクシャル）を名乗っている。というのはとても男性的なamab(assigned male at birth)も自身をトランスだと名乗るようになったから。
5:43 わたしはTSがコミュニティーで声を失っている状況にうんざりしている。
6:20 わたしたちTSはわたしたちの問題の権利を得た。違う形態の抑圧に関していえば、フロリダではホルモン治療や手術が必要なくなった。これは悔しいことです。それはわたしたちTSの年配者が戦って苦労して勝ち取ったホルモン治療や手術を受ける権利だからです。 多くのノンバイナリーの人たちがトランスになるには性別違和なんて必要ないと言い出したのです。
ここ５年くらいでノンバイナリーの人たちがトランスコミュニティーに入り込みすべてを粉砕してしまった。わたしたちが持っていた診断の基準などを。”だれでもトランスになれる！”ルールもない。医療もない。人々はわたしを人間のクズでトランスメディカリスト（トランスには診断治療が必要と考える人）と呼んだ。
8;42 buck angel なぜノンバイナリーの人たちが代弁者になったと思うのですか？
8;48Jordan ノンバイナリーというより、現実には、シスジェンダーの人たちがノンバイナリーを装っていると思う。わたしは本当のノンバイナリーの人を知っています。それはパーソナリティではなく経験で、そのことを他人に押し付けません。彼らはTSと対立しません。しかし、シスの人たちはトランスが注目されるようになってから、わたしもノンバイナリーだからトランスだと言うようになった。今はいくらでもそう言えるが５年前だったらうざいことだった。
以下Jordanの生い立ち 13歳から25歳までゲイだったが、子供のころ自分は女の子だと思っていた。25歳からトランス開始。
17:36 子供のトランスをどう思うか、１３歳でもしトランスしてたら？
コインの両面で悪い面もある。１もっといじめられていたかもしれない。２十分に発達できなかった（思春期ブロッカーで） わたしは大人でトランスしたので性的器官の機能を楽しめた。（思春期ブロッカーを使うと一生オーガズムが得られなくなります）
20:55 TSでない人が子供のトランジションについて語るのはやめてほしい。トランスでない人、ノンバイナリーの人も子供のトランスについて語る。しかしTSには実際に生きた経験がある。
21:38 わたしたちと同じような考えの人はいる。Practice trumps theory 実践は理論に勝る。ジェンダー理論の授業では”lived experience"（TSの人なら経験する）生きた経験の話しがない。本当のTSはトランスであるということの意味をいじりまわしている特権はない。（TSではない人がトランスの意味をいじりまわす）
わたしたちのように男のスペースで生きているFTMTSや女のスペースで生きているMTFTSは元のスペースに戻ることができない。しかし彼ら（TGやNB）は元のスペースに戻ることができる。detransitionersをどう思うか？
悲しい。（性別違和以外の）間違った理由でtransitionしたとしたら。数年前までトランスであることを疑う人などいなかった。（トランスしない）人生を生きることはできなかったから。トランスであることは選択ではなかった。しかし今は”トランス自認”というものの影響がある。そのトランス自認というもののせいで人々は間違った理由でトランスする。トランス自認というもののせいでdetransitionersは傷ついたのですが、長い目で見ると、そのトランス自認はわたしたち現実のTSをも傷つけます。というのは（その失敗のせいで）トランジショニングすることを制限する法律ができるからです。
24:40 BuckAngel 身体移行して３０年たつわたしだが、今一番トランスが憎まれていると感じる。それは（シスヘテロ（（Jordanいわく））彼らがトランスだというから。
25:09 detransitioningはtransitioning より難しい。それはどれだけ身体移行してしまったかによる。肉体的に戻れないし、心理学的トラウマもあるし。
25:40BuckAngel 何人かdetransitionerと話したけど、彼らが共通に言うのは、十分な時間セラピーをしてくれなかた。１５分しかセラピーがなかったということ。
26:23 Jordan 共感と無縁。共感を文字通り失った。振り子がドラマチックに揺れ動き、ニュアンスというものがない。誰も批判的に考える技術を持たず、すべてが極端。
どうしていいかわからない。ソーシャルメディアが社会を分断させている。
わたしたちは顔を晒しすぎた。
27:37 BuckAngel 診断が必要なくなり、クラブに入るような感覚でセルフIDを使うことは危険だ。セルフIDは危険だと前から言っている。ノンバイナリーだとセルフIDしてる人がトランスの顔をするから。荷物を盗んだ人もいた。笑 またCLUBQの事件でノンバイナリーと自認しているとされる人物（銃乱射事件）
ノンバイナリーが悪いのではなく、セルフIDでノンバイナリーではない人もノンバイナリーだと言えるから。
29:39Jordan 人々は権力を守るためにクイアな自認を誤用するようになった。ブラックフェイスと同じ。TSはセルフIDを使ってふりをすることはできない。見ての通りだから。
30:23BuckAngel それがTGとTSの違い。 （TGからはTSが）ヒエラルキーを作ったと言われるがとんでもない。わたしはあなたたち（TGとは）違うんです。わたしは（TGと違って）生物学を認識しています。生物学を認識していますか？
30:47 Jordan もちろん。 だが質問したいのは、トランス女性は女性ではないというのはいいんだけど、TickTokでトランスに対する言葉でシスを使ったらシスは女性に対して中傷だと言われた。どうすればいいか。
32:26 BuckAngelいい質問だ。わたしたちTSがトランスと呼ばれたくないように生物学的女性はシスと呼ばれたくない。
33:54 Jordan多くの人は考えようとしないが、社会があなたをどのように知覚するかは、あなたが自分自身を知覚するよりも、あなたのジェンダーと関係がある。The way society perceives you has more to do with your gender than you perceive yourself.
社会がわたしたちを男性と認識したり女性と認識したりするから、わたしたちには男性として生きた経験、女性として生きた経験がある。見た目が女性なのに男性だと言ってもその人は男性として生きた経験がない。そういう人を男子スペースに連れていくことはできない。
35:23 jordan わたしは女子スペースでトランスを怖がる女性を責められない。というのはトランスというラベルと乱用して女性を虐待したトランスがいるから。最もおぞましいことです。
女性と自認した男性が女子刑務所に行くことも非道です。
TSはTGとは全く別物
maikokarino
2023年1月26日 22:53
精神科に通っている間はつらかったので、たしかに行きたくなかった。でもあの二年間は必要なことだったと思っています。
わたしは、後から診断をすり抜けたと言われたくないために、あえて診断が一番厳しいHメンタルクリニックを選びました。
そこで２年間自分と向き合いました。
本当の自分と向き合うのは勇気がいることです。どこまで身体を移行させれば心が安定するのかなんて、やり始めないとわからないことです。
幸い、わたしは女性ホルモンで鬱症状が治るタイプだと言われました。
Hメンタルクリニックに行く前は、非常に自殺願望が強かったのですが、女性ホルモンによって救われました。
身体が作る天然の男性ホルモンが脳にあっていないという漠然とした違和感が高校生くらいから強くなって、根拠もないことだからと、女性ホルモンには手をつけずにいました。 我慢の限界にきて、女性ホルモンを始めたところ、暗い気持ちがすっかり晴れてしまいました。
精神科医の役割は、除外診断をすることです。
要するに、性別違和（性別不合）でないのにそう思い込んでる人を除外することです。
Hメンタルクリニックに通って２年後に性別適合手術の許可がでました。
自分の性別を他人に決められることを当時は腹立たしく思ったことも事実です。
当時読んだ本で、５３歳で女になった大学教授というアメリカ人の大学教授が書いた本があります。彼女は性別適合手術を受けた女性で今も生きています。
彼女はその著書のなかで日本の現状にも触れています。日本では精神科医が社会の門番の役割をしていると。
日本では精神科医が警察のような役割を果たしています。
性別違和（性別不合）でない人が女子スペースに入ってこないようにする役割です。
わたしが脱病理化に反対する理由は、当事者のためではなく、女子スペースを利用するシスジェンダーの女性のためです。
maikokarino
2022年7月21日 13:29
性同一性障害者（性別不合）で身体の違和感が強い人は、たいてい、”自分は間違った身体の中に閉じ込められている”と答えます。
これはなんと世界共通の現象なのです。わたしはNGO関連でアフリカに二回行ったのですが、そこで教育を受けていない性同一性障害の難民を見つけました。彼女はなんと同じことを言ったのです。違う身体に閉じ込められていると、、、、しかも彼女は保健の授業を受けて来なかったので、２０代なのに自分に子宮がないことを知らず、自分はまだ子供が産めるはずと信じていました。わたしは彼女に子宮がないから子供は産めないんだよと教えるとすごいショックを受けていました。そういえばわたしも小学性のときは自分も子供が産めると信じていました。中学で自分に子宮がないことを知って愕然とした記憶があります。
性同一性障害者が、違う身体に閉じ込められていると表現するのは、世界的な現象です。教育を受けていない人でも同じように表現します。
そして重要なのは、性同一性障害者は決して”違うジェンダーを入れられてしまった”とは言わないのです！
ジェンダーが違うのではなく、あくまでも身体が違うのです。
結局のところ、身体が性別を決めているという感覚が生まれつきあるのです。それは生まれつきのジェンダークリティカルではないでしょうか？
性同一性障害者はジェンダークリティカル
maikokarino
2022年7月21日 01:41
身体違和がない人がSRSすれば後悔するのは誰でもわかることです。
なぜ私に生まれつき身体違和があったのかはわかりませんが、不思議なので思い出してみます。
小学校二年生くらい。 父や母と交互に一緒にお風呂に入って、自分の身体が母親と違うことに疑問を持った。父のような身体になりたくなかった。
わたしは母親に聞いた。
”お母さんもおちんちんついてるんでしょ？中に引っ込めて隠しているんでしょ？”
母親はバカなことを言うもんじゃないと怒った。
怒った母親を見て、核心をつかれて焦っているなとすぐわかった。
姉たちのようにおちんちんを体内に埋め込むのが上手くなれば女の子になって、子供も産めるのか。
わたしの推理は絶対に正しかった。
子供を産む穴はお尻の穴に決まっている。隣の家が飼っている鶏が卵を産むところを詳しく観察したので、間違いはない。お尻の穴から卵を産んでいた。
おちんちんを体内に埋め込んで、男の人を好きになれば、赤ちゃんをお尻の穴から産める！
わたしの推論はいつも絶対に正しかった。
小学校高学年で、タック（男性器を体内に押し込む）の方法を自分で考案した。
（母親と姉たちがタックの方法を教えなかったのは、私に対して悪意があるからに決まっている）
https://www.healthline.com/health/transgender/tucking#how...
今でこそTuckについての情報は海外でも共有されていますが、インターネットのない昔、わたしは自分で考案しました。
中学一年生 保健の授業。 自分には子宮卵巣、膣がないので子供が産めない事実を知って衝撃を受ける。
中学二年生 わたしがくっついていた男の子との関係を疑われ、ホモだホモだと学年じゅうの噂になった。彼は、おれはホモじゃないと全否定し、わたしは、ホモじゃなんでいけないの？とクラスの女子の前でひらきなおった。 女子は唖然としていた。（ホモは現在差別用語です。ゲイという言葉はまだありませんでした。）
彼は異性愛者だったので、女になって見返してやる！と心に誓った。
そして、タックは続けていた。 何か解決方法があるに決まっていると自分を信じた。
高校一年生、雑誌でカルーセル麻紀の性転換を知った。 これだ！と思った。 部活や体育がない日はタックを続けた。
だが性転換費用が数百万かかることで絶望した。 ニューハーフになれてもわたしの身体なんか買ってくれる人がいるのだろうか？ 一体何人に身体を売ればは数百万たまるのか・・・・・高校生のうちはそんな計算をやっていた。
大学生。 諦めてゲイとして生きられるか模索した。ゲイバーに行って相談したがなんか違っていた。 エイズパニックの真っ最中で、ハッテン場に行く勇気がなかった。
３０代、自分の人生を生きていないので、”こんな人生生きるに値しない”が口癖になった。 この世のすべては３Dの立体映像に過ぎず、シミュレーションに過ぎないと感じた。架空の人生なのだから、終わりにしても良いと思った。
暗い人生を歩みつつも、タックは続けていた。
中村中さんが紅白で女性に出場したのを見た。ニューハーフ業をやらなくても女性になれることを知った。 もう我慢できなくなった。
カチカチのアナログインターネットで性同一性障害、ホルモン入手を検索するようになった。
大学生のころ、日本では性転換は違法行為で、医師が処罰される状況だった。
やっと、正当な医療行為で性転換できるようになったので、一番診断が厳しい精神科に通って、メイドインジャパンの人工女になった。 手術の輸血は自己血の輸血ですんだので、輸血のトラブルは避けられた。 仕事を休んだのもたった二週間だった。 座ると猛烈に痛かったが、わたしには平気だった。 もう終わっていた人生なので、生きられるだけで儲けものだからだ。 ダイレーションも苦ではなかった。
カルーセル麻紀さんと話す機会を得た。
やはりわたしのロールモデルだった。
彼女が生きた時代はあまりにも昔なので、ショービジネスしかなかった。
彼女が今若かったら、大きな会社の経営者だったのではないかと思った。
彼女は性転換手術後５０年くらいしているが全く後悔していない。
わたしも１０年以上経過したが、全く後悔していない。
身体違和の例
maikokarino
2022年8月16日 14:09
23:33
smearing and yeah straw marketing and you know people don't seem to be interested in what we're really saying
23:40
yeah no but i think yeah i take your point that there's reasons just within our own side in
23:45
terms of kind of credibility and integrity to not overuse these accusations
23:51
regardless of the the politics of the um the coordination game or the the um
23:58
conflict yeah okay next uh question this is an interesting one
24:04
so homosexuality is sometimes defined as the attraction to the same biological sex
24:10
but obviously there's a lot more to lesbian attraction than the attraction to a vagina
24:15
what are your thoughts on the reasons why lesbians often don't want to date the trans women who claim to be lesbians
24:22
whether they've kept their penises or not what are my thoughts and the reasons why
24:27
lesbians often don't want to hate trans men well my thoughts are
24:35
to do with the definition of a lesbian right so i think um that sexual
24:44
attraction sexual orientation um is directed towards sex as a
24:51
fundamental component biological sex is a component and that's how that gives us a really useful way of categorizing different kinds of
24:57
orientations right so once we've identified the lesbians and they're same sex attracted by
25:03
definition then it's not really going to be surprising that they're not attracted
25:08
um to uh males opposite people of the opposite sex with
25:14
penises or without penises there are sort of limiting cases or sort
25:20
of margin cases on the margins where things are going to get messy um in the sense of it's not you know
25:26
people will our attractions aren't under our own control and if you're attracted to women and this is a person who looks exactly like
25:33
a woman because they've changed lots of things about their body over the years you might well be attracted to them and
25:39
i don't think he would disqualify you from the lesbian club i think that's that's just human sexual
25:45
desire but just because there are borderline cases as in this debate throughout this debate just because
25:51
there are borderline cases does not mean that the whole category collapses and does not mean that in a non-borderline case you should fancy
25:58
them too or you know just because they say they're a woman yeah there's plenty of people calling themselves lesbians now
26:03
that aren't you know are visibly um so um that's what i think i mean i don't
26:10
think it's controversial now that gets misinterpreted all the time is policing desire you know fine i i absolutely have no
26:18
how could i have any problem with who people fancy it's just a matter of categorizing yeah
26:24
correctly and to leave a space for people who don't want to do that who have their own interests
26:30
as you know because we're both members of that group um who have their own interests politically
26:36
and need to be able to speak about them um and not have other people take the mic yeah basically and then all the other
26:42
problems that are involved in males declaring themselves to be lesbians yeah there are several i would be really interested to
26:49
know just the empirical question of how many people there are that are kind of like
26:55
stably categorized as lesbians who who are or would be attracted to
27:01
feminine appearing people with penises just because i felt like in some of the social media debate this was often like
27:07
a point where the trans activist side would just sort of cite all these cases of lesbians who
27:14
were perfectly happy dating trans lesbians and then kind of try to use that as a
27:19
proof that we were just being bigots or so i mean those two things don't even go
27:25
together right so empirically so i hear and i don't know if this is true or not
27:30
but sexologists say that women are much more flexible in general and much more prone to bisexuality than
27:37
men i don't know if that's true um but that's a that's like a description it's not an evaluation
27:42
that's just if that's true that's the way it is it was it's still compatible with some people absolutely being exclusively same sex
27:50
attracted and the trans activists and not just the trans activists there's a whole kind of
27:56
moralizing discourse going on about sexuality at the moment which says it's a matter of equality who you want
28:03
to have sex with and you should fancy this group even if you don't you should yeah that's preposterous yeah like we
28:10
should be getting morals into who you are attracted to you either are or you aren't yeah
28:16
and um so even if empirically it turns out that quite a lot of lesbians would
28:22
happily sleep with a trans woman others wouldn't yeah and they should be left alone and
28:29
we should continue to have words to describe them and their interests so yeah it's a mixing up of empirical
28:35
and kind of moralizing in this debate that's just not at all no i agree with you but i think the last thing you said is really
28:42
important right that you in a way the categories would just move sideways because you would still need a
28:47
term to pick out the exclusively same sex attracted lesbians even if you
28:52
wanted to change the the broader category lesbian that's good too i mean it depends i think sexual orientation is a
28:58
disposition that's manifest over many occasions right so one swallow does not because someone
29:03
doesn't speak um yeah so like it doesn't matter we all
29:10
have aberrations from our trajectory in the course of the life usually yeah but um but uh
29:17
yeah if you're repeatedly attracted to um people with penises chances are you
29:24
could you should be including that in your orientation yes yeah yeah okay should we go on
29:32
yes um okay so is oh right this is a big one how
29:38
much time we got is gender abolition a coherent goal
29:44
oh that is the big one um i think this is a great question because
29:49
i think it is our goal as radical feminists for sure and as gender
29:56
critical feminists i think so um i think that that that goal has been inherited
30:03
um but i think there's a lot of um room for maybe talking past each other
30:10
and exactly how that's understood so i noticed that when i read deborah soa's book for example she's kind of
30:16
claiming gender is biological but she obviously doesn't think all of
30:21
the things packed into what we think of as femininity across history are biological so she
30:29
clearly makes some implicit distinction between the silly stuff like loving baking or whatever and then the
30:37
the stuff that is plausibly even a candidate for being biological right and so
30:42
i guess for me maybe that's the space where there's room to disagree about like on how much gets packed into
30:49
gender insofar as we want to abolish that stuff so the way i understand the radfem project is
30:56
whatever the stuff is that our long kind of um long history of like ideology
31:04
built up to justify male dominance whatever that stuff has done to women
31:10
what norms it has created what stereotypes it's built all that stuff that makes women be away
31:16
that they wouldn't be otherwise or that they are not naturally in any given context abolish
31:23
that stuff um i think that leaves plenty of room for some stuff still being a real sex
31:29
difference or so i don't think that the rad film or the gender critical feminist has to be committed to any sort
31:36
of like blank slate ism um i think there's room to discuss
31:41
which stuff is socialized or inherited and which stuff is biological if any is
31:48
uh but i think we want to abolish whatever's in the category of the stuff that that we've inherited or has been imposed
31:54
on us um so there's nothing good just take the social stuff
32:00
yeah um say that we could clearly identify stuff that could have been easily could have been different yeah even within
32:08
biological difference um you think there's nothing to be retained there or good about it so
32:14
now do you mean uh good and to be retained for any human because if that's what you
32:20
mean then i think there's loads that's good but if you mean good and to be retained for female people only
32:26
as a kind of role or expectation then i think no um nothing what what
32:33
what do you have any examples of um yeah like um
32:41
book groups i don't know like feminine companionship gossip uh knitting circles
32:49
uh i don't know stuff that that women do that men don't tend to do with exceptions obviously you would always
32:55
have to have exceptions but into all this discussion so i i'm different i don't think gender abolition is a
33:01
coherent goal at all but i need to nuance that a bit conscious obviously depends on how you
33:08
define gender um this is why i can't say i'm a radical i think
33:15
i it depends on how you find gender if you were to define gender as the harmful
33:20
social stereotypes the ones that harm women and men um
33:27
then i would be more down with it but if if the project is to sort of erase all social differences between men
33:34
and women i don't think it's possible i absolutely don't we're social creatures and there is a biological
33:39
difference that will then get expressed through social behavior and it will tend um it will differ from
33:45
culture to culture but there will be a way that socially women
33:51
are or it will be developmental they will be sort of acculturated into it and there will be a way that men are so
33:59
i don't when people say they want to abolish gender and you just have people who just have men and women um
34:06
but no kind of social stereotypes around that i don't think it's possible and particularly because of heterosexuality that
34:13
is the confounding force in this um plan that sex
34:20
keeps the species going there's no way of getting rid of heterosexuality why would we want to so there will be
34:27
social stereotypes around sex and and there will be ways of being feminine in relation to being
34:34
masculine in the domain of i mean sex as in sexuality not biological sex um so our i think our project is to get
34:41
rid of some of the hideously harmful aspects of the social stereotypes we do
34:47
have and many of those are made much much worse by capitalism
34:52
so um objectification of women on a rampant scale making women
34:58
feel like their objects from pretty much the minute they come out of the womb making them aware of their their their
35:04
appearance their their fuckability their you know um their
35:09
uh their value as objects to um other people yeah that's thing um
35:15
that's we can i think we can change that we could imagine different kinds of social meanings for men and women that didn't
35:22
have these hideous uh consequences but i don't think we can get rid of the whole thing
35:27
so do you think like i mean there's lots of ways in which
35:32
humans might have some differences that kind of carve them up into you know two groups or more than two
35:39
groups and i can imagine someone making a similar claim then you just made without the heterosexuality part
35:46
which i think might do a lot of work but imagine they just said yeah look like there's always going to be like height differences and
35:52
and people are just going to build social stuff on top of that and so you know call that something like like
35:58
what we have for gender it's not that it's biological but it's just that once we have a physiological or a biological difference
36:05
we just do tend to kind of add culture and meaning around it and so i suppose like the the more skeptical
36:13
thought would be like there's no reason why that should be built around sex in the future like maybe if we are the kinds of
36:19
creatures that just love to have tribes and gangs and have little fun hobbies and habits built around them
36:26
maybe it's going to track some other difference in the future than sex and i guess your comeback i anticipate
36:31
will be that sex is actually um it's it's a likely one precisely
36:36
because of heterosexuality and the kind of mating practices whereas things like
36:42
height or whatever other biological or physiological differences they're just not as significant so
36:47
is that right exactly right so and they'll be ones around maternity and
36:53
paternity and anything to do with reproduction will generate its own
36:58
sexual meanings yeah um but it is possible to imagine like i was trying to imagine last night
37:04
what a healthier um culture for women around sex would be
37:10
um because i don't think it would involve like um the one we have
37:17
on a number of levels uh and i was thinking you know could we like i don't know
37:23
could eroticize the i don't know fecundity or something like that i mean i'm not
37:28
saying this is not a proposal but just it's just helpful to imagine
37:35
alternatives at the moment we eroticize like submissiveness youth uh skinniness um
37:42
stuff like that that doesn't really help women at all so we i think we should think about what alternative
37:47
um erotics might be and often lots of people are but um whatever we go for we should be
37:53
aware that then capitalism will exploit it and we'll make it into a commodity and it will be a race down to the bottom of
37:59
whatever it is so that's part of the problem too that even if um
38:07
i i don't know sometimes i feel a bit depressed about the future because i think whatever feminists do it will be it will
38:13
be you know ruined right by the mark so what a depressing thought yeah
38:22
okay um so i think it's your question i think i have one for you yeah um so this i'm super interested in
38:29
what you think about this i'm i'm at the start of writing a paper so this is basically just me getting you to
38:34
write my paper for me um so to what extent do you think
38:40
anyone in the gender critical movement is in fact responsible for what anyone else in the movement does or
38:47
answerable to anyone else in the movement and i'm interested in this question in in both the
38:53
horizontal and the vertical way so people that have some authority and influence in the movement
38:58
being responsible or answerable to to people with less uh but also just our responsibility as a
39:05
group for like the renegade actors um who might do things that we really don't like or
39:10
or maybe we really do like so just this kind of moral question of how much we're all on the hook for what
39:16
what other gender critical feminists do well this is why i wouldn't you know
39:22
this is part of my ambivalence about calling myself one thing or other is as soon as you put yourself in a group you start feeling
39:28
responsible for what other people in the group do like honestly i don't think i'm remotely
39:35
responsible for what anyone else does unless there's a special context that
39:40
explains it but normally how could i be you know i'm doing my best and what i say is often misinterpreted
39:47
but and then um i can't control that you know so if somebody ends up doing or saying
39:54
something on the basis of what i said um that won't be my
40:00
problem although i will feel bad about it but um i do think i mean i guess you
40:06
raised this because you know i is clear from what i've done in the past that sometimes i think it's
40:13
strategic to distance myself from things that i personally don't think are right or do not fit with
40:20
my values because of the people have a tendency to push us into this group yeah look they perceive us as this mass
40:29
they think we're all connected psychically you know i don't know what you know people have this tendency to just think that
40:35
um when especially when it's a kind of there's a there's a group of visible people that somehow they're all
40:42
constantly communicating and hanging out together and in fact i don't know half of people yeah in the gender movement yeah um
40:49
and even and once i do know i meet them like once every three years are you denying that are you denying
40:55
that there's a cabal of powerful lesbians yes
41:03
right um so uh but that's so does that address the
41:08
question because there was also about like what do i what responsibility do we have to well i
41:14
guess you you've said something about how you've whether you feel responsible for others but there's also the question of
41:20
when others are angry at you let's say if that ever happened would you feel like they could
41:25
justifiably have any claim to it oh um
41:31
well like sometimes i do up yeah i mean sometimes i tweet um
41:38
things i shouldn't because i'm in a terrible mood and i only realized afterwards
41:44
or i've misunderstood something yeah and i'm responsible i'm responsible for myself
41:49
but i'm not gonna what i'm not gonna do personally speaking i'm not sure it's really answering the question but what just for the record what i'm
41:55
not gonna do is some abject apology online yeah you know i've reflected
42:00
and i will do better i educated myself it's just so gross like you know it's not really
42:07
an apology done for the right reasons normally anyway yeah and something about making women in
42:12
particular do it you don't see men making those very often yeah sometimes making those
42:17
kind of abject apologies so like you know what's it what's it to you if i up
42:23
yeah you don't know me and i will respond i will clean up whatever side of the street i
42:28
need to with the people that know me but there are people on the internet that think you know they have an opinion
42:34
about a lot of what you do don't they yeah yeah they don't know you so well i mean i think i i mean i
42:42
basically share your view that i don't really think in anyone is responsible to or for anyone else but i think i've
42:49
managed to convince myself of why at least some people feel
42:55
really frustrated about this like uh in the sense that i think there's some resent well
43:01
resentment might be the wrong word but i understand that it's not possible for everyone to have
43:07
a position from which they can speak and be heard and that makes people feel really
43:14
invested in what the people who have the position say and i think at least that gives me
43:20
an explanation of why sometimes people are so angry with each other in this debate
43:25
because they've put all their eggs in the basket of like you not it up i don't mean you i mean
43:31
like any of us who happen to to be able to have a platform um so at least i
43:36
i understand i think where some of the frustration or anger is coming from but i do still think it's
43:42
fundamentally misguided like i just don't think because we're not an organized group i
43:47
just don't think anyone is answerable to anyone else and if if you don't like what they're doing
43:52
don't support there more or do try to start doing something yourself
43:58
also the other aspect of this is that like just going along with the group and
44:03
going along with the herd and saying what you're expected to say is what got us into this mess yes
44:08
right so i'm not going to start now um
44:14
thinking i better not say that i really don't agree with that person because it might you know i don't know
44:21
what the bollocks has said like it might does um fracture the group or whatever
44:27
there is no group yeah i don't think there's a group there's a p there's a group of like-minded people
44:32
but we didn't swear an allegiance to each other and we didn't all take an oath and criticism is healthy so people will
44:38
criticize us i will preserve other people that's the way it should be
44:43
because otherwise we turn into a hive mind and we all know what happens with my eyes so yeah i just think that's something i
44:50
would take it out but other views are available right there are other people that are constitutionally much more attracted to the idea of
44:56
group solidarity sisterhood and stuff like that and i'm not criticizing them i do see the attractions of that is just
45:03
i find it constricted myself i find that often when people talk about sisterhood what they mean is
45:09
you know don't say that yes i i have had the same experience so yeah i think that's right
45:17
um okay so um how would you have time by the way
45:23
though okay yeah we're all right um would there be the terrible consequences
45:29
that some feminists think there would be if we actually acknowledge psychological behavioral or biological
45:35
differences between men and women so this kind of relates to the gender abolition stuff
45:40
yeah i've already said no i think i think you said no have you that there wouldn't be the
45:46
terrible i mean i guess i think this question really just taps into that fault line
45:54
that came out of the second wave about whether our approach to feminism is going to be a sameness or a
45:59
difference one right like do we want to argue that women are the same as
46:05
men like the way to approach equality or liberation depending what your goal is is this sort
46:11
of sameness like we are all human and we have to be approached in exactly the same way or is it this like
46:18
we are different in some interesting respects but that doesn't affect our moral equality at all
46:23
and my sense from what i've managed to read so far is that we gave the sameness attempt we gave the
46:30
sameness approach a really good crack and it didn't get us everything we needed because we are different in some
46:36
important ways when it comes to sex and things like maternity and so we actually do need different
46:41
provisions i think that was one of um mckinnon made that point really nicely so
46:46
i don't know i sometimes think about this in parallel to um to gay rights i mean that's a case
46:53
where i think it's really clear that there are just differences in sexual orientation and
46:59
and it attracts a majority in a minority um i don't know what it would track under idealized
47:04
circumstances maybe there'd be the proportions would be like a bit different than they are today when there's more homophobia but i still
47:10
think probably it's a minority um and that looks like a real difference and we
47:16
protected it right we didn't say okay from now on everyone's pansexual because we're all the same
47:21
um rather we said like yeah lots of people are heterosexual some people are gay get over it we're all morally equal
47:27
that's fine so there's been cases in the history of human rights and like trying to work for equality and
47:33
liberation where we acknowledge and accommodate a difference and there have been cases where we
47:39
really pushed for sameness i think racial liberation struggle has been a case of push for sameness
47:45
that's because there probably isn't well there isn't that kind of fundamental difference so i guess i i think it would
47:53
be fine like whatever isn't gender going back to the earlier discussion
47:58
whatever stuff isn't socialized and we don't want to abolish i think it's perfectly fine if we
48:03
acknowledge that those are real differences and we're not exactly the same as men and we're not all human
48:09
um we're not all human oh yeah none of us are here
48:16
we're not all human because we're all human but we're still yeah i don't know how to say that probably
48:22
hopefully you just know what i mean oh yeah yeah i mean i i have similar thoughts really
48:29
especially about the futility of thinking we're the same if we're not the same so that is an
48:34
empirical question and there has there is like historically a massive amount of defensiveness
48:40
amongst feminists to the point where they some think they can settle that in advance just like
48:47
clearly there can't be differences because if there were differences they might be exploited to oppress us as if they weren't already
48:54
being exploited but um so we need
48:59
people to like call junior uh and daphna joel and their antagonists to get into that
49:05
yeah and just and find out what the differences are that and that's that will be the way it
49:12
is if you know there is a way that it is so i don't we don't neither think that everything's socially constructed
49:18
where it's just all up for grabs yeah um so would there be the terrible consequences no because we
49:26
have the capacity to um offer remedial
49:32
arrangements for differences where we think they impact on well-being
49:37
of the group and we could do that and in some cases we have tried
49:43
governments have states have tried to do that yeah so uh i think it's fine to acknowledge
49:52
difference and like i suggested i think it's fine to retain social difference as well and that there may be
49:58
many valuable things within femininity or some conception of femininity that we could retain or
50:04
foster or enjoy or promote as values um we're in this weird situation at the
50:11
moment where femininity is simultaneously kind of fetishized and um
50:17
reviled yeah so there's this kind of split attitude to it but there's there's
50:23
lots of verbal things about femininity and masculinity as well yeah um i don't think
50:29
actually i don't disagree with that i think maybe the point where we might disagree is that i just think
50:36
of all the things that are valuable about them i don't see why they need to be tied to
50:41
sex at all and so i guess my like vision of the wonderful gender evolutionist future is that there
50:49
is masculinity and femininity still but lots of the things lots of the specific ways it shows up are just
50:56
uh kind of separated uh and then it's all difficult well it's like it's
51:02
like the firewood chopping people that there's some women and lots of men and they do the firewood that's just a
51:08
one thing and so it's like what you know what i mean like our mosaic of masculinity if you wrote it all down
51:15
each of those i think would kind of get separated from each other so it's not just this like masculine people bundle and then who
51:22
could be those things would also not be tied to sex i just want to be clear that i'm not because this is this area is just so
51:28
fraught with misunderstanding um that i'm not suggesting that when i say there's valuable things about
51:34
femininity i'm not suggesting that that men who exhibit these feminine traits should be
51:39
thought of as um abnormal or in any way discriminated against and
51:45
vice versa so i'm not proposing some kind of weird future where masculinity only matches up with maleness and femininity
51:51
only matches up with femaleness because it won't that's the point it never has
51:56
and um with human life is too messy it's not neat like that like people identify with the opposite sex
52:03
like they identify like you know they identify with the social stuff that goes with the opposite sex
52:08
and that's great and can be a real rich source in itself however we can acknowledge that and
52:14
acknowledge the value of feminine masculinity in some possible um articulation of that
52:21
yeah but do you think they most like are you seeing it as mostly still attaching on the base of
52:26
sex but then they're just asking actually conceptually it can't be detached because it wouldn't be
52:32
masculine it would be the social meanings around sex it would just what would it be well it would have been a level to just
52:39
chopping wood hairdressing whatever you want yeah i mean i guess i'm thinking you
52:46
tell a lineage story right so of course it's still masculinity it's just that now
52:51
that bundle of stuff like the being stoic and providing and whatever like you just fill in all the details
52:58
that stuff now is just stuff that anyone who's attracted to that can have so maybe the question we bought would
53:04
need to be settled empirically but it's like how much of those two bundles of things
53:11
are like how many of the people who are feminine or masculine are still women or men and do you need a
53:18
story about how like some people are just attracted to the opposite sexes social meaning stuff maybe not um
53:25
[Music]
53:30
also want to make that clear i am absolutely not on board with the idea of feminine you've got anything to do with a big woman or masculine's got anything
53:36
to do with being a man so okay now i don't even know what now i'm totally confused about what your future
53:41
proposal is because i thought you were saying in any possible world being of a sex
53:47
is going to attract some sort of social meaning and like maybe routines or rituals and
53:53
so we cannot abolish gender which is the minimalist social meaning of sex
53:58
i thought that was but that's got nothing to do being a woman or a man being a man is adult human male
54:06
being a woman is that double human female you agree yep the grade about them
54:11
that wouldn't change totally but in the thing that you so your future
54:18
that has the like much more minimalist social stuff
54:23
social meaning you stuff tied to sex does that stuff i can't even ask this
54:31
does that why does that stuff have to cluster around sex rather than just being kind of
54:37
free-floating interesting stuff that people can choose to make use of if they want to i think that's my question yeah well i'm
54:44
i think that's a false opposition it's not free-floating but people can
54:49
take it up or not okay i'm not suggesting that we alter people's preferences yeah i'm saying conceptually
54:55
identifiable as masculine by virtue of its relation to sex otherwise it just becomes
55:02
behavior human behavior like it wouldn't even these categories would even be in the
55:09
world you um suggest there won't be masculinity or femininity they will just be human
55:14
behavior and i'm saying they can't just be human behavior there will always be behavior which people
55:20
understand as so the social meaning of being female or being male that's i
55:27
think that now we can try and alter what in con in practice that behavior is
55:32
but there will always be some stuff that is associated socially with being female and some stuff that's associated socially with
55:38
being male and that will be feminine masculinity whatever in practice the values are yeah yeah i
55:44
actually think we might just be having like a verbal disagreement because i think there's a question about whether any
55:51
like any any social stuff that's stuck to male people call it masculinity or the current stuff
55:58
that we think of as masculinity including the chopping firewood call that masculinity and then whatever the
56:03
future stuff is that's tied to the male sex give it a new name and i think maybe we're a bit confusing maybe we
56:09
are more in agreement than i thought we were maybe great anyway we can like we can continue that
56:16
all the time i've um i think it's me next right now this is good
56:22
yes it's me good um so have feminists actually been complicit
56:28
in creating the problem that gender critical feminists are now responding to so we're seeing a big influx of men
56:35
fleeing like refugees into the category woman and i'm wondering if this is at least in part
56:41
because feminists in the past positioned men as the baddies so they blamed them for male privilege
56:47
or male entitlement some of them said all men are sexists um some of them said
56:53
that men are actually biologically corrupt and so you know full separatism is our only option to escape escape from them
57:01
so if that's right does that tell us anything about what we should be doing differently going forward for example
57:07
not demonizing men um um
57:14
i don't think it's helped i mean i think in every in every political movement you will get
57:19
um you'll get extreme positions emerging and those tend to grab all the
57:25
attention so i don't think um the entire feminist movement
57:30
historically even the radical feminist movement demonized men but some um yeah i don't i don't think
57:37
it helps because if we're right and um a lot of the problems stem from
57:44
socialization then this is not then men got socialized too like for whatever
57:51
behavioral category we're talking about men got socialized too it's not something they chose it's not something that they're even
57:56
necessarily aware of so to manifest total aggression towards
58:02
them for it is not helpful or constructive although it might make
58:08
women feel better yeah um and it's also another thing for the record that i
58:13
think is unhelpful is is the ignoring of the role that
58:18
women play in propping all this stuff up like again they shouldn't be demonized for it because they've been socialized into it
58:24
but you can't have this kind of um double standard where you let the women off for being socialized
58:29
and blame the men for being fully in control of it all and i had this uh it's really quite
58:36
strange experience last year i think it was when we i went to that women's place meeting in
58:41
brighton um which there was a huge amount of protest out and it was a really scary
58:47
experience to walk in there because there was just like thronging trans activists from the labour party
58:53
conference had been sent there with megaphones and there was water thrown over
58:58
a couple of people and i was kind of manhandled on the back of the heads i went in and the room was blocked
59:04
it was really like complete mayhem and really adrenaline but i walked in managed to get in and um
59:12
and two women in front of me and they turned around and they were just like men you know god bloody men
59:18
and i was like those were women's voices it was wonderful it was a woman called
59:24
the i mean a biological woman woman with a loud hailer it was a woman the man handled me
59:29
it was it was women yeah and women are at the forefront of trans activism yeah they are usually
59:34
doing it as allies so there's lots of reasons why you know that you could say they're socialized into helping yeah
59:41
into being good soldiers but um they are there so i don't think we help when we fact
59:47
you know maybe this let women off the hook in the sense of ignore their contribution and at the
59:54
same time um attribute massive responsibility personally to
1:00:00
men yeah so i wish find a way and that's my aim in anything i do in the future finding a way of talking about the problems whilst
1:00:07
not making it kind of personal yeah i think i agree with that and that we
1:00:12
should be talking more about the the role of women i mean one thing that's interesting in the parallel to
1:00:18
the like trans-racialism discussion is that there was a pretty uniform response from uh
1:00:25
black people against this kind of identification in and that's something
1:00:31
that's just not true in the feminist movement right like it's not that and i think it would have made a huge difference like if women had
1:00:37
been speaking with if there was a majority voice that was like this is not okay it's disrespectful uh it's um
1:00:45
you know it tramples on feminist projects or it encroaches sex-based rights we'd be having a really different
1:00:50
conversation now i think so the fact that so many women are on board with
1:00:56
gender identity ideology and then actually furiously infighting with other feminists over
1:01:02
these issues is like a huge part of the explanation of why we are where we are
1:01:07
the only thing that i disagree with that is that i actually don't i do think the
1:01:12
majority of women probably think that gender identity if they even knew about it um would think that that would make any
1:01:18
sense because it doesn't make any sense um but what it is is it's a disproportionate number of
1:01:24
um progressive women in positions like running twitter feeds or
1:01:30
um being on boards and or not giving boards but like being employees of third sector organizations and they um
1:01:38
are very active and signed up to all this and they have uh an effect a disproportionate effect
1:01:45
um so um because i i just don't want to mix this up with the idea that like this is a
1:01:52
populist majority position the gender identity ideology is the mainstream i don't think it is i
1:01:59
really don't think it is i just think that it's in very powerful little bubbles
1:02:04
yeah um a lot of women believe it but do you think inside feminism it
1:02:10
would be fair to say women mainly agree with it or do you not even think that's true
1:02:15
i don't know about that because obviously you get into what is feminism and most
1:02:21
there's a version of feminism or there's something that calls itself feminism that seems to be quite widely held
1:02:26
amongst people who call themselves feminists that um is you know feminism is for everybody
1:02:32
uh trans women and women um that just bears very little resemblance
1:02:39
to the the thing that i'm into so i know they both call themselves
1:02:45
feminism but i don't think they're the same
1:02:50
okay okay um powering through our list powering
1:02:57
through yeah i think we might i see a couple of questions in q a yeah let's keep going
1:03:03
because we've only got a few more on our list we've got what we've got like about 25 minutes left
1:03:08
yeah and i had two more by email if we're willing to do some blind had the use
1:03:14
of bad statistics by trans activists shed any light on past strategies used
1:03:19
by feminists this is interesting because um
1:03:27
i had this kind of revelation at a certain point where i got way less angry with trans activists
1:03:33
once i realized some of the like dodgy tactics the second wavers had been using and actually this came
1:03:40
from reading christina hoff summer's book because i was trying to read the the like the feminist um what do you call
1:03:46
them like the anti-heroes or let's play some better word for i don't know renegades yeah candidates
1:03:54
yeah like summers and taglia yeah these um the ones who kind of are
1:04:00
feminists but are going against the grain so i wanted to just read them and see what they had to say and summons does this
1:04:06
absolutely meticulous kind of take down of campus rape statistics and domestic
1:04:11
violence statistics and it just you know there's these amazing stories about these zombie stats
1:04:17
that that you know one organization that hadn't really done its research properly would say but then
1:04:22
because the network was so dense everyone else would start repeating these claims and it would just take absolutely
1:04:28
ages to make them die and it undermines the credibility of the movement right because someone can easily do the research and show that
1:04:34
that's a wild exaggeration um and then sort of just yeah just make
1:04:40
you look silly and i had a personal experience recently i haven't done all the fact checking yet but i was just
1:04:47
brazenly using some of andrea dawkins um numbers about the witch burnings so i
1:04:53
just read her book and was like you know she surely she's done her research right um so then i taught my students yeah
1:05:00
nine million witches were burned during this particular that's what she said
1:05:05
and then i saw it was an electric game and then it was in a talk that i gave in two different countries
1:05:10
and then there was a guy in the audience in this talk and um i can't remember where it was but he
1:05:16
was like um that number is orders of magnitude too high like and he sort of explained
1:05:23
why and what we know and yes i think i've just kind of constantly confronted these
1:05:28
stats or numbers that are just like reckless and obviously have just been put in the service of political goals
1:05:35
and it's made me a lot more kind of compassionate i think about what's going on in trans activism
1:05:40
um it's like don't throw stones when you're in a glass house yeah um yeah i had a similar experience
1:05:46
when i was reading nora kittness's book i'm just i don't know what it's called i'm just looking it's unwanted advances
1:05:52
yeah i liked that book yeah i mean i i agree i agree with everything you
1:05:58
just said um i don't think i think it's easy to do obviously like i haven't had stats
1:06:04
training um if i read something that seems from an associative source
1:06:09
right i'll start to believe that because that's what we're wired to do it would be really inefficient for humans to have to go and check out every belief that
1:06:15
they hold and get most of up at least from authority or taken on trust
1:06:20
um and it's exacerbated massively now by um the professionalisation of universities so they're constantly
1:06:26
churning out like attractive um attention grabbing headlines like scientists have shown
1:06:33
that and you read a good conclusion in here that um and then you look at the paper
1:06:39
occasion you go back to the paper and you think what like this you know this is set up so prejudicially whatever
1:06:46
so yeah there's a big problem just information as we know but i do think especially academic feminists have a
1:06:52
responsibility not to contribute to it yeah and one of the shocking things is that there are lots of
1:07:00
professors calling themselves feminists or calling themselves gender studies professors who um
1:07:05
well they are gender studies professors um who
1:07:10
don't seem to feel any responsibility to like connect with empirical reality when the things they
1:07:16
say yeah they're just so because i suppose that comes from a kind of ideological background where you
1:07:22
think that everything is constructed and in a sense you're doing good work by naming the world you want to see or
1:07:28
something like that and maybe reality will catch up if you just keep saying it but it doesn't work like that
1:07:33
because we know so yeah okay next question it's a commitment of
1:07:40
feminism that women can unlearn their sexist socialization and try to become
1:07:45
free seems to me we should believe the same thing about men
1:07:51
but what would it take exactly for a man to have unlearned male socialization and if we could come
1:07:57
up with a precise answer to that question would we mind those men being in
1:08:02
women-only spaces okay well i think this question we've
1:08:07
already covered some of it right so um it depends on what you mean by male
1:08:14
socialization and i don't think it's possible for people not to be socialized
1:08:20
in a way that's connected to their sex so in that sense i don't think we can get
1:08:27
everyone to unlearn it but we can get people to uh we can over time i think more optimistically try and
1:08:34
change certain kinds of really uh harmful uh influences
1:08:40
but the question about would we mind those men these so i suppose you have in mind some kind
1:08:46
of male figure who is i don't know what would it be like not
1:08:51
aggressive um not sexually aggressive has what
1:08:56
i don't know what would it be i can't think of a way to articulate that such that those
1:09:03
people would be okay in women's spaces no that's not how women are spaces work
1:09:08
right women as everybody knows watching this i assume women are only spaces
1:09:13
are um a means by which a very broad brush brush means by which
1:09:19
we exclude a few predators by excluding
1:09:24
all males yeah it could never work a lot along a sort of you know um club guest list you can come
1:09:31
in no not you how would that work it wouldn't work so uh no no most single sex spaces do not
1:09:40
have people at the door right so it all relies on the social norm that we have to internalize and it can't
1:09:48
just be like well i'm a nice chap you know i've got no i've got no um ambitions to invade these women of
1:09:54
privacy or attack them so i can come in it just can't work like that so all this attempt to conceptualize the
1:10:02
perfect um male psyche or physiognomy such that
1:10:08
it is allowed in but not these people this is the point of what how single sex
1:10:14
spaces work in institutions i think okay what do you think
1:10:22
no i don't know i guess i'm just um i'm curious about this question i mean
1:10:27
there's something that marilyn frye said that i think about a lot but she said it in the context of race right like
1:10:33
doing the work of unlearning racist kind of um i guess socialization's not
1:10:39
quite the word but like whatever it is we've we've learned and then she sort of applies it to
1:10:44
to sex as well and i guess i just often think about what what's the work like what does it take
1:10:51
in principle what would it take for us to really trust a man and think that if we could have a policy
1:10:57
that would tell us the difference between the men who we were worried you know because it's not biology i think there's
1:11:02
something in the kinds of things that butler and the other gang say when they're like
1:11:08
it's not about the penis it's like it's irritating but they're sort of right that it's not about the penis right it's about the
1:11:14
the socialized maleness so i think i just get curious about what exactly is the stuff where if we knew
1:11:22
that stuff was gone would we be would it sort of change well it's not it's not
1:11:27
necessarily a fully rational um kind of desire either in the sense and i
1:11:35
don't mean by that it's irrational i just mean that like a lot of women because they're you know we are brought
1:11:40
up in a mostly heterosexual world we don't want to get undressed in front of the opposite sex yeah we don't know i think that works
1:11:46
both ways right we just it's not just even about necessarily being worrying about being attacked although
1:11:51
you undoubtedly are especially if you're a woman but um even if you could get rid of the threat
1:11:57
of attack somehow from a stranger that you don't know um it's privacy it's feeling
1:12:05
self-conscious it's like you know there's lots of because of heterosexuality there's lots of social
1:12:11
meanings that cannot be eradicated around becoming undressed yeah um
1:12:16
and i just don't think i don't see why i think we're misunderstanding what it
1:12:21
is if we're trying to do a rational calculation like if we could get rid of this would it be all right it's more it's more about a
1:12:28
fully comprehensive kind of set of emotional attitudes desires feelings
1:12:36
feelings like bodily integrity privacy but um there's no reason to try and dismantle
1:12:43
that or to to set up spaces that somehow don't yeah
1:12:50
no no i see i see what you're yeah i see what you're saying okay okay now
1:12:56
i see we've got another controversial one coming up um one fault line in general critical
1:13:02
feminism seems to be the women adamant about working within the left only and women more open to working across
1:13:08
the political spectrum a woman's place uk are a good example of the former i think
1:13:15
whoever wrote this let me and megan murphy and julie bindle are two examples of the latter i think
1:13:21
do you think this will remain a source of tension yeah i
1:13:28
i like this question because i've sometimes felt really frustrated i think i'm one of the people
1:13:34
that's in the bindel slash murphy type camp where i'm like pretty open to
1:13:40
who we work with and maybe at least i want to hear more about it like if i'm invited to do something at a
1:13:47
place that's obviously like religious for example then i want to look into what else they've been involved with but i'm but
1:13:53
i'm in principle kind of interested in in working
1:13:59
maybe with anyone or with a lot of different people from different perspectives and i sort of relate not being willing
1:14:06
to a kind of closed-mindedness that we're finding really frustrating from trans activists so i say something in me like
1:14:13
really dislikes the the black and white thinking of the drawing the line at the left as though
1:14:19
that's a really coherent there's a really sharp line you can draw so um but i had this thought the other day
1:14:26
that that it's like a moral philosopher take i guess but i had this thought that maybe
1:14:32
the ones who are more purist about working within the left they have to perform anger at us who are
1:14:39
willing to work across the spectrum we could live and let live but i think they have to perform it to
1:14:45
show that they actually are committed to working only within the left like if they could just live and
1:14:51
let live with everybody going off and doing things with the right they would look complicit right and that would undermine their
1:14:58
credentials as being like very much committed only within the left so i was sort of thinking
1:15:04
maybe some of that anger and outrage is actually more performative than sincere and so we shouldn't we on
1:15:11
the bend or slash murphy side shouldn't get so upset about it because it's just they're not actually mad at us they're just showing
1:15:16
their values does that make sense yeah that makes sense but um so it's a kind of like
1:15:21
purity spiral where um once people around you start assuming that you're complicit then you have to
1:15:27
show that you're not exactly and then more that other people start showing that they're not the more that you have to because um your silence
1:15:36
is interpreted as complicity yes yeah exactly i mean it's complicated isn't it
1:15:42
um i mean i have all sorts of incoherent thoughts about this one thought i have is that just left and right generally
1:15:48
speaking even just take out feminism left and right no longer um named the only options as it were
1:15:55
like there's there's positions which are socially um or sort of economically left and
1:16:00
culturally right right and that and that um so so again i would i although i have
1:16:08
and do describe myself as on the left i'm increasingly like allergic to doing so because it brings a
1:16:15
whole bunch of assumptions about where i must be and things i must right and you know don't yeah um
1:16:22
there is a big so it says and there's different versions of the right as we all know so there's the in america the right is
1:16:29
different to the uk right um yeah and um right is a and left are relative
1:16:37
terms relative to what the norm is in that country so what looks left in america looks right in the uk
1:16:43
so it's just um difficult i think but i think i'm not actually sure that yeah
1:16:52
i'm just thinking about julie in particular and jude vindal and thinking that she you know she she isn't someone i would
1:17:00
put with megan no i mean i think they respect each other as far as i can see
1:17:06
but julie is more keen she just wrote something the other day about why we
1:17:11
shouldn't work with certain versions of the right i think so okay um the danger is
1:17:18
alliances with powerful right-wing factions particularly in america who
1:17:26
blatantly have no interest in the package deal they only have an interest in um
1:17:34
asserting biological difference uh as a source of womanhood and manhood
1:17:39
yeah but they aren't on board with any of the other things that a feminist might be interested in
1:17:44
and that is strategically a danger it's not morally a danger it's strategically a danger
1:17:51
but the people that make those alliances assess the risks and i am open to the idea that i don't
1:17:57
understand the american situation you know i i'm not there and equally american people don't understand
1:18:02
the uk situation or the australian one yeah so people make their own decisions and
1:18:08
people draw their own lines and i do respect that other people draw their lines differently to me i don't criticize them for it i have
1:18:14
in the past like two years ago now on one day made a couple of tweets that
1:18:19
have come back to haunt me ever since when i said something about particular
1:18:25
um gender critical feminists who would i thought crossing the line or put drawing the line in a different place to
1:18:31
me yeah i kind of regret those tweets now partly because what the hassle i've had since
1:18:37
um but also partly because at the time i felt it was i felt very isolated for various reasons
1:18:44
and um i felt like it was important to for my own strategy to show
1:18:49
i was not to be put in this with these people yeah um but since then
1:18:56
i've thought differently about that so i mean i'm not in the same group but i didn't need to perform
1:19:02
i think yeah so yeah i think it's complicated okay well our apologies to julie bendel
1:19:09
for misclassifying her in that question um i hope that doesn't start her no it
1:19:15
won't uh okay this is a kind of question for maybe that academics well okay i'll just ask the
1:19:22
question so um the political philosopher elizabeth anderson distinguishes pure moral
1:19:29
argument from all of the contentious actions of politics and she suggested that pure moral
1:19:35
argument uh isn't enough to induce social change and i feel like this is a view we see a
1:19:41
bit in feminism that the political activism is the real work and the theory is just like
1:19:46
around in the ivory tower so i'm interested in your take on what you see as the place of
1:19:53
theory within feminism and feminist activism in particular
1:19:58
well um i so i reflect quite a lot on the role of
1:20:04
academic feminists yeah and i think i want to make a distinction between two kinds
1:20:10
there's the social scientists the ones that are doing the empirical work hopefully like
1:20:15
accurately recording the state of women's lives what women want what they need what they
1:20:21
have and and recording all of that accurately and we need them but that's not really theory
1:20:28
although they can be theoretically inflected if we're talking about high theory like
1:20:34
really abstract unempirical stuff really i'm not sure
1:20:40
if i'm watching it's not true like high theory i don't know what high theory is
1:20:46
fair enough watch yeah so when it comes to high theory i honestly
1:20:51
think that this is kind of provocative that the only role for academic feminists is to correct the ridiculous things that
1:20:58
other academic feminists say and that is my role right now you know that's why i'm writing my book
1:21:05
um because again you know a need has been created by um preposterous
1:21:12
uh claims don't make any philosophical sense and so and then they've had some
1:21:19
purchase in the culture and now we need to do our best as philosophers to speak from that place and say
1:21:24
not everyone agrees with that and that's actually wrong yeah but um generally speaking i think grass
1:21:30
roots is where it's at like feminism is about what women need and what what contributes to their
1:21:37
well-being i think and women outside the ivory tower know better than academics what they
1:21:45
need and what they're well being consistent so i think feminism should be populist
1:21:51
it should be grassroots and uh in an ideal world theory
1:21:57
theoreticians wouldn't have much to say and i do i think i say at the end of my book like just be suspicious of some academic
1:22:05
coming along and telling you something that's really surprising or controversial like did you
1:22:12
know there's no such thing as women wow how cool you know because chances are that
1:22:17
that conclusion has been drawn for reasons of its novelty and it's it's kind of filled a position
1:22:24
in logical space that was empty and you know there's a constant push in academia for the new
1:22:30
and the sexy and the reversal like you may have thought it was this but actually they thought this was the cause and this was the effect but actually this is the
1:22:36
cause and this is the effect and wow a switch how sexy and how interesting it's got
1:22:42
absolutely nothing to do with women's lives and it can actually hurt them as we see through the prison service and the influence of judas
1:22:47
butler so yeah um yeah that's my view um ideally i wouldn't have this job
1:22:56
there was actually a really good example of that in one of our department meetings recently so we had to make a
1:23:01
policy decision and someone in the group was like well i have argued that p in a philosophy journal and seemed to
1:23:09
believe that was a reason that we should adopt that as departmental policy and i was like that is absolutely mad like we argue all
1:23:15
sorts of nonsense in the philosophy journals because it fills a position in logical space or it's interesting or
1:23:21
it's like that but that's not the it's not the few that we should just have as policy
1:23:26
so i found that quite astonishing actually um absolutely and now that you know the university
1:23:32
system's gone the way it is and we're supposed to churn out five articles a year like literally everything has been argued in a journal at some point and we
1:23:39
will be yeah um with an average of five readers per article so you know
1:23:46
people when academics churn out their big ideas as we can see they very often have no
1:23:52
idea about how this would be implemented totally they don't know what's going on i mean most of the the trans activist
1:23:57
academics that i come across just seem absolutely resistant when you point out like facts at them they they just don't
1:24:05
believe you yeah or like or they're not interested or they just it just makes no difference it skims off
1:24:11
the surface of their minds they're just not interested in how empirical reality is and how it might interact with these
1:24:16
bold ideas yeah so yeah good okay so what is your view on trans-identifying male standing
1:24:22
as candidates in women's shortlists and then the question is do you think we should scrap shortlists now so what do
1:24:28
you think oh i find it absolutely enraging every time i hear about a male person standing in a woman only
1:24:35
shortlist um i'm i'm furious and i don't care if that person passes well or has lived as
1:24:42
a woman for five years i mean there's just so many reasons why the whole reason why that thing was put
1:24:48
in place being to advance women's under-representation or bring you know marginalized perspectives in
1:24:56
which there's no reason to think that that it would do um no i i yeah
1:25:01
i'm furious about it and i don't think that means we should scrap shortlists i think maybe one constructive thing we
1:25:07
could fight for is having additional shortlists for gender minorities rather than piling them all in with the
1:25:12
women as though there's just one marginalized group um but that's their
1:25:18
that sort of trans activist job to argue for and it's obviously easier just to get in on our stuff
1:25:23
so i don't know how feasible that is i don't know if you could have could you have shortlists like with two different kinds of short lists i also
1:25:30
thought the point of the shortlist was it was it kind of narrowed down the potential candidates to this
1:25:36
shortlist oh well the women's only political party shortlists are just like getting a few of that group right like
1:25:43
it's not the whole selection so i you're right if it's just one job
1:25:49
whatever maybe you can't but if it's like there's multiple positions to be filled and you dedicate one of them to gender
1:25:55
minorities and 10 of them to women like been fine um yeah i i don't know
1:26:03
ultimately what i think about shortlist generally speaking well i absolutely know that i think that
1:26:09
now we have them in certain areas they should do what they were set up to do otherwise it's
1:26:14
weedless and i share your fury about how people don't seem to see that
1:26:21
um and it's just yeah it's just so insulting um to have as there was that there's a
1:26:29
democratic um i don't really know what role this
1:26:34
person has in democratic the democrats in america some kind of local level
1:26:41
politics but there's a video of this person giving a rousing talk
1:26:46
occupying a women's officer role is this the guy in the like maroon tight dress that's got the
1:26:52
crotch bulge yeah okay i've been meaning to look him up but i can't remember his name
1:27:01
exactly those girls were designed for so if if that's the way it's going then yes grab them because now we have this kind
1:27:07
of incoherent position and scrap them but it'd be much better if we just kept
1:27:12
yeah onto the original purpose and then worked out whether we need that purpose or not yeah so it's just lazy thinking then
1:27:19
yeah good okay we're at half past so i think we should probably end it there thank
1:27:24
you so much for making the time and i know it's quite early in the morning there so i really appreciate you getting ready
1:27:30
and thanks to everybody i can see that there's been like really lively chat going on i can see some
1:27:35
arguments in the corner of my eye but thank you all for participating and um
1:27:41
yeah cheers yeah thank you and next month i think is going to be susan hawthorne annika and maybe some
1:27:47
other mystery guests so we'll send out an email good night bye
Kathleen Stock & Holly Lawford-Smith | Gender-Critical Philosophers
Feminist Hereticより自動文字おこし英語タイムインデックス２９．３３以降
https://youtu.be/CjXshdq4ZlQ
タイムインデックス２９．３３から見てください。
キャスリーンストックはジェンダー廃止は不可能で、それはジェンダークリティカルのゴールではないと言っています。
ホリーローホードスミスはジェンダー廃止はジェンダークリティカルのゴールだと言っています。
キャスリーンストックがイギリスで自称トランス女性軍団に負けてしまったのは、ジェンダー廃止を念頭に置くことができなかったせいではないでしょうか？ かたやホーリーローホードスミスは教授職を脅かされていません。
セルフIDに打ち勝つためには、トランスジェンダリズムそのものを否定しなければならず、それが可能なのはジェンダー廃止論だけなのかもしれません。
ジェンダークリティカルフェミニストにとってジェンダー廃止論は究極の武器かもしれません。
二人の会話を追っていくと
ホリーローホードスミスははっきりとジェンダー廃止がラディカルフェミニストとジェンダークリティカルフェミニストの一貫したゴールだったはずと言いっています。Debra Sohの著書をあげ、彼女はジェンダーは生物学的なものだと言っていると言っています。しかし、過去の歴史で生物学的に女性だからといって押し付けられた女性らしさは生物学的ではない、たとえば、パンを焼くのが好きとか。男性支配を正当化するために押し付けられたものはすべて廃止するべき。ラディカルフェミニストとジェンダークリティカルフェミニストはいったんブランクスレイティズム（blank slate 人間の本性についての白紙の状態の味方）につとめ、どれが社会化され、受け継がれたものか、どれが生物学的なものか（もしあるのなら）見極めないといけない。わたしたちは押し付けられたものはすべて廃止したいと考えている。
キャスリーンストックは、ホーリーに聞きます。社会化され受け継がれたもので良いものは全くないと考えるのか？
ホーリーは答えます。人間として受け継がれて良いものはあるが、女性だからと言って受け継がれたものはないと。ホーリーはキャスリンにそういうものある？と聞きます。
キャスリーンは、読書の会、女性の仲間の世間話、編み物の会とかがあると答えました！（わたしからすると、彼女は全くジェンダークリティカルに感じません。彼女には身体が男性なのに編み物の会で仲間だと感じた自称トランス女性がいたのではないかと推測します。）彼女は答えます。それはジェンダーを有害なものと定義するかどうかによって変わってきます。社会的な差異をすべてなくすことは不可能と考えます。彼女は自分はラディカルフェミニストではないと言っています。
キャスリーンはジェンダークリティカルと言っても、イギリスの過激な自称トランス女性軍団からするとジェンダークリティカルというだけで、日本人からすると普通の女性の感覚に見えます。
そんなキャスリーンが大学で叩かれて辞めたなんてひどすぎます！
キャスリーンストックとホリーローホードスミスの決定的な違い
maikokarino
2022年7月22日 15:51
https://youtu.be/bg4_E6Y4POc
大学を去る前、レズビアンに大人気の哲学教授。
彼女自身LGBTコミュニティーに属しているので、本来はトランスジェンダーは敵ではなかった。
左派の政党の力を借りて過激になった自称トランスがセルフIDを求めるようになってからトランスアクティビストと対立するようになった。しかし、多くのトランスとは対立していない。
この動画で、トランスアクティビストが歴史を捻じ曲げたことを指摘してる。レインボーパレード（ストーンウヲールの暴動）を開始した人の一人マーシャジョンソンはゲイ男性だったのにトランスアクティビストは彼をトランス女性というようになった。
しかし面白いことにキャスリーンストックはこの講演の中で、マーシャジョンソンを彼女と言っている。 敬意を表してのことか？ いやわたしは違うと思う。
わたしは英語圏のゲイとよくチャットをすることがあるのですが、たまに無意識にゲイは同じゲイを彼女と言ったり、レズビアンも無意識にゲイを彼女ということがある。
レズビアンにとって、男性を好きになるゲイは女性で、むしろ、女性を好きになる自称トランス女性は男性である。なぜならゲイはレズビアンにとって無害で、女好きの自称トランス女性はレズビアンに迫ってくる有害な存在だからである。
キャスリーンストックはこの講演で、はっきりと、ペニスがある自称トランス女性が女好きと言っても、レズビアンとは認めない！と言っている。
当たり前のことです。 その人たちは女装男性ですから。
よく自称トランス女性は自分たちが暴力を受けるから女子スペースを使わせろというわけですが、その暴力の発生率について学者は正確な調査をする必要があると言っています。その調査は、どの団体から資金をもらって調査したのかも明らかにして。
最後に彼女は哲学者として人権と、ある権利を認めさせる方法を区別しなければならないと言っています。自称トランス女性が女子専用スペースを使うのは人権ではない。トランス女性が暴力を受けないようにすることは人権である。トランス女性たちが暴力を受けないようにすることの解決方法が女子専用スペースに入れるという方法以外にたくさんの方法があるはずです。
また哲学者は次の二つを区別しなければならない。だれかを侮辱するためにわざとミスジェンダリングすることと、生物学的政治的現実を話す場合のことを区別しなければならない。だから、誰かを侮辱することなく女性の身体について話す文脈が必要となる。もし女性とトランス女性を区別する言葉がなかったらわたしたちの身体に名前をつけられないし、わたしたちが受ける抑圧にも名前をつけることができない。
講演の冒頭でも言ってるように彼女はトランスの人権の支持者である。トランスが暴力を受けることには反対してると。。。
こんな優しい彼女を大学から追い出すなんて、自称トランス軍団はひどいロビイストです。
イギリス、アメリカ、カナダなどで、公立の学校でgender ideology , transgenderismが教えられるようになり、身体違和がないのに、ホルモン治療や乳房除去をしてしまい、裁判沙汰になっています。（生まれつき身体違和がある性同一性障害者は学校の授業と関係なく身体違和を自覚します）
SNSや、学校で、gender ideologyを教え込まれた子供たちは、自我が確立していないため、自身をtransgenderだと思い込みやすくなります。
特に女の子にとっては、男の子のふりをしたほうがかっこよくておしゃれだから流行に乗ってしまうのです。
問題は、学校が代名詞を変えてしまうことからスタートします。そして、新しい男の子の名前で呼び始め、そのことを親に知らせません。（性自認の差別禁止法があるカナダでは、生まれつきの性別の名前や代名詞で子供を呼ぶと親が逮捕されます。学校では娘がトランスしようとしていることを秘密にします）
それらの”進んだ”国では精神科医に相談すると精神科医も娘のトランスを勧めます。transだと自認した後から鬱になったにも関わらず。
どうやったら娘が思い込みで、ホルモン治療や乳房除去に進んでしまわないように食い止めることができるのでしょうか？
Mom Explains What It Took to Rescue Daughter From Transgenderism - YouTube
この動画の母親は娘のスマホを取り上げ、自分を元の女性名で名乗るようになるまで返しませんでした。 公立の学校をやめ、gender ideologyを教えない私立に転校させました。 キャンプに参加させ、一日中仕事させ、考える時間を与えず、女性の身体でこれだけのことができるとわからせました。
カリフォルニアにはたくさんスクールカウンセラーがいて、それはいいことのように思われがちですが、スクールカウンセラーは皆子供たちをトランスさせようとします。
親は積極的に授業に参加し、何が教えられているか知る必要があります。子供の宿題も何が出されているか知る必要があります。親同士連携し、親の権利のために戦う必要があります。
Welcome | Our Duty
このような団体もあります。
学校でTを教えてはならない。取り返しがつかない判断ミスが起こるから。
maikokarino
2023年5月16日 12:23
欧米で10代前半の女の子が胸を取ってしまって後悔する問題は、小児性愛者の問題と関係ありました。
欧米ではすでに性別変更に性別適合手術は必要ありません。そのため女装者も出生証明書は女性となり生まれつき女性です。（日本では性別適合手術が必要なため男性器がある女性は存在しません。）
2013年アメリカ精神医学会はそれまで性同一性障害だったものを性別違和としました。まだ精神疾患でしたが、身体に違和感がない女装者も含まれるようになりました。
2018年 WHO は性別不合という病名に変え、精神疾患というレッテルをとりました。つまり精神科医の診断がなくても女装者は性別を変えられるようになったのです。急激に女装者が出生証明書の性別を女性に変えるようになりました。
欧米の義務教育ではすでにジェンダーイデオロギーが教えられていました。
男性器があっても女の気分といえば法的に女になれると教えられていました。 生物学的性別のことは教えられず、気分によって性別の種類は100万個もあると教えられていました。ジェンダーがセックス（生物学的性別）より優先されるという教えでした。女子更衣室に男性器がある人が入ってきたからといって通報すると、トランス女性差別になるので逆に訴えられることを学びました。
ジェンダーイデオロギーを教えこまれた女子生徒は、自己否定するようになり、自分の身体を憎みました。
（男性器がある女性から自分の身を守るため、無意識に男性化を望みました）
2018年 TEDｘで研究者が小児性愛は、生まれつきの性指向だと発表しました。
TEDx Pedophilia is a natural sexual orientation Mirjam Heine University of Würzburg ugwbBgDOro - YouTube
そのため小児性愛者で女装趣味がある男性は、精神科を受診せず（WHOが性別不合は精神疾患ではないとしたため）堂々と性別を女性に変えました。
子供をレイプした”ペニス付き女性”は女子刑務所に送られました。
女性の人権団体が抗議しても、政府や国連までもがジェンダーイデオロギーに洗脳されているのでどうにもならない状況です。
性同一性障害ではないにも関わらず、クリニックでは女の子たちにホルモン療法、乳房除去手術を行いました。 身体醜形障害など他の疾患であるかもしれないのに性別不合は精神疾患ではないとWHOが決めたので精神科医がほとんど関わらなくなりました。また性自認による差別を禁止している国では、医師は患者の性自認を疑うと罰せられるようになりました。つまり、他の精神疾患が原因で性別を変えたいと言っている患者にそのことを指摘できなくなりました。
身体に違和感のある性同一性障害という精神障害者で性別適合手術を受けた者だけが性別を変えていた時には起きなかった悲劇です。
身体に違和感がない小児性愛者の女装者までもが手術なしで女性になったので、女の子は自分を守るため手術して男性化しようとし始めたのです。
性同一性障害ではないにも関わらず、男性ホルモン投与のため一生声が低くなり、胸を取ってしまって後悔している女子が急増しています。
トランスカルトのディストピア
maikokarino
2022年9月29日 20:24
https://www.openlynews.com/i/?id=21757767-4909-4844-922f-41903ff042f8&utm_source=news-trust&utm_medium=redirect&utm_campaign=context&utm_content=article
アルゼンチンは１０年前からセルフIDなのに性別変更した人がたったの12655人。日本は１５年間でセルフIDがなく性別適合手術を受けないといけないのに性別変更した人が9625人。もしセルフIDがあったらアルゼンチンよりはるかに多くの人が性別変更するでしょう。（それだけ女子スペースの危険は増す）
アルゼンチンではセルフIDがあっても利用するのは本当に性別違和が強い人だけ。仕事がセックスワークくらいしかないからか。トランスの平均寿命が32歳というのは衝撃。
アルゼンチンは身体の違和感が強い性同一性障害でもスティグマが強く、セックスワーカーにならざるを得ません。
日本は女装者もカムアウトできるようになりました。また、仕事を辞めずに性別適合手術を受けて男性社員から女性社員になることも可能になりした。
１９８０年代は日本でもセックスワーカーにならなければ、トランスセクシャルは生きていけませんでした。私自身、大学受験を諦めてニューハーフになろうかと真剣に考えていました。
アルゼンチンはトランスの権利という意味で、日本より１０年以上先を行っていますが、それはトランスのスティグマが強く、セックスワークしか仕事がないための救済措置です。
アルゼンチンのトランスの平均寿命は３２歳でシスジェンダーの平均寿命の半分。
日本ではトランスセクシャルは自殺率が高いので、シスジェンダーより平均寿命は短いですが、シスジェンダーの半分の寿命ということはないでしょう。現にわたしは性別適合手術後１０年以上たってもぴんぴん生きています。また女装者の平均寿命は非女装者と同じでしょう。
おそらく、アルゼンチンでセルフIDを利用しているのは、本来ならトランスセクシャルの人たちです。人数から言ってそうでしょう。
だから安全上の問題が起きていないのです。アルゼンチンのセルフID利用者に女装者は含まれていないと思います。
アルゼンチンはトランスへの暴力が多く、死んでもいいから女性になりたい人しか女性になりません。日本では女装者が殺されることはありません。そこが全く違う点です。 治安が悪い国と治安が良い国では単純に比較できません。
アルゼンチンと日本を同列にできない
maikokarino
2022年7月25日 15:37
最大の理由。彼女たちは性自認という言葉が、誤訳だったことを知らないからです。
identity のいい訳がないので、性同一性を性自認にしてしまった過去がある。医師は性自認を性同一性の意味でつかっているが、某３団体は性自認をセルフIDの意味だと勘違いしている。
日本語の正しい訳はgender identity 性同一性または性自認 まだ精神科医が必要。身体に違和感がある人しか診断しない。診断書はホルモン治療に必要だから。
gender self identification セルフID これは身体に違和感のない女装男性が利用するものである。 なぜなら、ホルモン治療が必要な人は治療の際、診断を受けているから。 女装の方は診断を必要としない。
性同一性障害者（性別違和、性別不合）が求めているのは手術要件の緩和（持病があって性別適合手術を受けられない人、お金がないから受けられない人が多い）であってセルフIDではない。
世界的な流れは、まず手術要件の緩和、それから数年たって、脱病理化つまりセルフIDである。 手術要件が緩和されても診断書が必要な国が多い。 脱病理化すると趣味女装の人も女性になる。それが問題です。
なぜ日本のフェミニスト３団体が反セルフID運動開始が最速だったのかその理由
maikokarino
2022年7月20日 04:14
この方もジェンダークリティカルフェミニストで有名でセルフIDに反対してるのに日本の団体はとりあげていない。
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixJ19dLHFV8
Helen Joyce は最近有名なジェンダークリティカルフェミニストで著書は”Trans" 。
トランスをすっぱ抜いてます。
経歴がすごいのです。数学の博士なのです。なぜかジャーナリストに転身。 アイルランド出身でカトリックの家に育ったけど無神論者になった。
Debra Sohもそうでしたが、理系の女性はまず子供のトランスの問題点を指摘します。欧米ではpuberty blockerを日本より気楽に使っています。小児科医が処方もできます。子供が自分の性が違うといっただけで親が同意すれば１０歳から思春期をとめてホルモン治療します。puberty blockerはやめれば正常に第二次性徴が始まるから無害と言われていますが、反対の性のホルモン治療をすぐ始めると卵子も精子も妊娠能力が付かず不可逆的な不妊になります。
後で認知機能が上がって自分はトランスではなく同性愛者だったとわかった時にはもう遅いのです。１０代前半で手術までしてしまって後悔する人もいるのです。
Helen Joyce はpuberty blocker を処方されたトランスにはオーガズムがないことを問題視しています。 オーガズムがあることで生物学的な性別が自分の性別だと認識するというわけです。
Debra Sohは自身が子供の時男の子っぽい子だったが大人になって自分を女性だと認識したと言っています。
（認知機能が発達していない場合は本人が訴える性自認は信用できないという問題）
彼女もまたトランスアクティビストの人権団体に疑問を持っています。
恐ろしい事件がありました。妻の服を着て女装しているところを妻に見られた夫が妻の首をピアノ線で締めほとんど首がちぎれるほど切って殺した。すぐ捕まったのですが、トランス人権団体は彼は自分を女性といっているトランス女性なのだから女性の刑務所に入れるべきだと主張しそれがまかり通ってるのです。
Helen Joyceはそこで数学的に考えました。reductio ad absurdum（背理法）使って推理したのです。 その結果最初の仮定が間違っていると考えました。つまり本人が言ったジェンダーがその人のジェンダーだという最初の設定が間違っているのです。
だからセルフIDは間違っていると。
多元的な民主主義では宗教の自由などいろんなグループを認めないといけないわけですが、彼女は親がエホバの証人でも子供は輸血できる権利があることをあげ、子供の性自認が身体と違うと言っても親は子供を不妊にする権利はないと言っています。
”学会を無視はできない。１９９０年以降のアメリカのキャンパスではポストモダリストによって言語が現実をつくるようになった。言語化を管理しなければならない、というのは言葉は現実を悪く変えることもできるから。だからわたし（Helen)はトランス女性は男性だといわなければならない（トランス女性は女性だといって言語を現実化させないために）彼らはそれをヘイトスピーチだという。文字通りそれは真実かもしれない。わたし（Helen)はフェミニストの会合に参加しそこでケニアの難民キャンプでレズビアンが矯正レイプされその子供が殺されたのに国連は何もしないのを知った。その会合の外では、トランスのグループでアムネスティに支持されている団体が”トランス女性は女性♪”とまるでカトリックのカテキズムを歌っているかのように歌い、そのなかの自称トランス女性がフェミニストにむかってトランスフォビックなやつめ”suck my dick!”と言った。 世界が逆さまになっていた。”
理系の女性のジェンダークリティカルフェミニスト
maikokarino
2022年7月27日 12:00
Intro
0:00
all right helen uh first of all i just want to thank you for the time i know how busy you are and uh i've been wanting to meet you for months as we
0:06
were discussing before we uh kicked the call off it's really great to meet you welcome to the show it's good to have you on thanks for having me on
0:12
i always like to start conversations from kind of a beginner's mind perspective from the perspective of somebody who is
0:20
somewhat of aware of the work you do and what you're writing about but i'd love to give you
0:25
you know maybe for the first question some time to just articulate as i know you have in many interviews prior to this
0:31
kind of uh what got you interested in the book that uh we'll end up talking about today
0:38
i know some about your history that you're irish you wanted to be a dancer when you were a little girl what's what's the what's the pathway that has
0:44
led us to having this conversation for you to write this book i mean it's really my day job just i'm a
What led Helen into writing her book, "Trans: When Ideology Meets Reality"
0:50
journalist and i've done various jobs as a journalist i started the economist as education correspondent in the mid-2000s
0:58
i went out to brazil in 2010 to be our south america correspondent and since then i've edited different
1:04
sections of the paper the international section and the finance section i'm currently written editor
1:09
so in each of those situations you know you immerse yourself in a new field or a new place new culture
1:15
and you try to find the most interesting things that are going on that our readers might be interested in finding out more about and the only way you can
1:21
do that to the journalistic stock and trade is to ask questions and you have to be able to ask good
1:27
faith questions maybe you know maybe not using the right words but the person you're talking to will hopefully correct you and
1:33
help you along the way and there's only been once in my entire professional career that i've tried to ask good faith
1:39
questions about something that seemed to me to be a really obviously important matter of
1:45
public policy and to be told that i was a bigot and a nazi and i wanted an entire people wiped
Helen on how she dealt with resistance to asking questions as a journalist
1:50
out of existence and that i was putting people against the wall and that i was an anti-semite and that i was a racist
1:55
and homophobe and so many other things um and that i wasn't allowed to ask
2:01
questions the insults i don't care i mean people who throw uh un-based insults aren't even worth
2:06
listening to but when you're not allowed to ask questions as a journalist you should ask questions more that's the
2:12
point yeah you know we don't stop just because someone says you're not meant to ask about this
2:17
and the question i was trying to ask really although i didn't formulate it this way at first was just what do you
“What do you mean when you say you identify as a man or what do you mean when you say you identify as a woman?”
2:23
mean when you say you identify as a man or what do you mean when you say you identify as a woman
2:29
so this idea came out of nowhere it seems although in the book i track where it came out of in the last five
2:35
years or six years or so maybe a little longer in america but saying that you were a man where a
2:40
woman wasn't just a base biological fact i mean to me a woman in her 50s
2:45
what i mean by that is just that i was conceived female and i didn't die before i grew up that's why i'm a woman
2:51
there's no like behavior criterion for being a woman there's no test there's no way i could identify out of being a
2:57
woman nothing i could do that would make me fail at being a woman there's no activity called womaning
3:03
no man can ever be a woman just because anything a man does is what men do by definition
3:08
and yet that wasn't the way that suddenly it seemed everybody around me was talking about it they were saying that men and women were identities
3:15
things that you declared based on things that you felt or things that you thought about yourself
3:21
and in one way you could say why does that matter and if it just stopped at people telling you something they felt was psychologically important about
3:27
themselves i wouldn't mind at all people think all sorts of things about themselves they identify as things that don't have
3:33
firm logical or legal definitions they say they're environmentalists or
3:38
you know they describe themselves as artists and they've never sold a piece of art and that's all fine
3:44
but actually the terms man and woman do have legal definitions and biological
3:49
definitions and in most places that doesn't matter anymore used to matter more when
3:54
you know when only a man and woman could marry or when the um pensionable ages were different
4:00
or when the man get got to own everything and the woman lost everything when she got married oregon women couldn't work after they
4:06
got married my mother had to retire from the civil service resigned from the civil service when she got married
4:11
it used to matter a lot more what sex you were but it still matters sometimes so straight away i thought well okay if
4:18
people can identify as man and woman and those are consequential terms they
4:23
do mean something not just for you but for other people then what does that do to
4:29
society and public policy and i found out that just asking that politely
4:34
got such a response that i'm still asking it three years later and i've written an entire book about it
4:40
when you began to ask those questions and you got the kind of feedback the pushback that you have articulated
4:46
what was your reaction to that was that something that you expected to receive or how did how did how did that hit you
4:53
when you began to get get some i mean just completely astonished you know and i've literally interviewed
How Helen feels about pushbacks to open journalism and how she believes we should fight it
5:00
everything from you know paedophiles to gang members and murderers to crack addicts to presidents to bosses of
5:08
multinationals you know people of every age people in all sorts of situations people who committed terrible crimes
5:14
people who are very famous and nobody has ever acted in such a way
5:20
now it seems to me that you shouldn't call yourself a journalist if your response to people saying you shouldn't ask that isn't to ask it a bit more
5:27
because that should be the journalistic instinct you run towards the burning building not away
5:33
you know when somebody says you're not meant to ask that you ask it when somebody says you're not meant to say it you say it louder that's what a
5:38
journalist should be turns out that's not what a lot of people in journalism think now they think that they're in journalism i don't know to
5:45
to promote a narrative to um you know put the right side of history forward to
5:50
say that the world is now already the way they would like it to become so yeah i was astonished
6:00
to steal man the opposition right i mean i think this is why this conversation is so difficult is because it requires
6:06
nuance a lot of detail and the fact that we have made a lot of progress i think
6:12
just globally and in the english-speaking world with treating people who are
6:17
of minority statuses with more compassion and more rights and
6:23
in my research of you prior to this conversation i have never once heard you in any way articulate a desire for
6:29
anything but that however you do want to have a conversation that goes in a little bit deeper into what
6:36
exactly is going on what the details are what the response is and what the what the ramifications are for
6:43
making this switch in the way that we view gender in our in our society um
6:49
and that's kind of where i would like to take the conversation which is i think most mel well-meaning people
6:55
are totally fine with granting people who are experiencing gender dysphoria with all the legal rights that anyone in
7:02
our society has but it does get complicated when you begin to actually apply that to law
7:08
and to apply it to society and culture at large and i know that's a lot of what you write about in the book
7:15
what are some of the consequences there that have begun to take place in our culture with
7:21
this switch being made where people basically are able to identify with whatever gender they would like
7:27
uh basically turning gender into a choice rather than a fact of biology
What are the consequences of changing a society where gender is a matter of choice, rather than a matter of biology?
7:33
i mean i should just wind back a bit and remind everybody that the largest oppressed group that has ever lived is
7:38
female people so 52 of the world is female and that's
7:43
a group that has been systematically oppressed and exploited by male people right through history and that has not
7:50
stopped yeah so there are countries in the world where female people have their genitals mutilated
7:55
are left to die when they're born are married off at 12. even here in rich countries you know
8:02
male people commit nearly all the violence really nearly all the sexual violence
8:07
the female people suffer nearly all the sexual violence you know domestic violence goes nearly all one way etc etc so
8:14
if you want to talk about compassion it's interesting that the compassion doesn't seem to
8:21
incorporate female people we just skip right past that we skip past the largest group that has ever been oppressed and
8:28
still is so i'd like a bit of compassion for female people too please that said
8:34
i don't know that nuance is exactly the word i'd use people do use that because they are very afraid and rightly so
8:41
of being thought of as being bigoted i think its clarity is more important
8:47
so when you know when we've got too used to saying i identify as and we haven't noticed that there are important things
8:54
that people identify as i don't think it's nothing to say that you identify as an environmentalist and it's certainly nothing to say that
9:01
you would identify as a jewish person or a catholic person or you know a member of islam
9:06
those things are not the same as saying that you are from a particular country of a particular nationality or
9:12
that you are male or female and i think that if we think about gender identities i try not to use the
9:19
word gender as a synonym for sex because it confuses people if we think of gender identities as being like beliefs
9:26
then we can think about how to protect them and how to take them seriously and how to accommodate them in a pluralistic
9:31
society in a way that's not mean or nasty or
9:36
hurtful but doesn't either impose upon other people i think it's immensely important if someone tells me
9:42
they're an orthodox jew but i'm absolutely not going to live by their rules or say that i agree with their rules
9:48
you know accommodation common courtesy they're the sorts of things we require not rewriting the world and the whole of
9:55
society so that their rules supersede mine so all of that said
10:02
if you say that somebody is a man or a woman according to what they declare
10:07
then you immediately come to the few places in the world where we still separate men and women
10:12
and they're all places where sex matters we don't do it anymore for no reason you can marry someone of the same sex
10:19
same same pensionable age you know by and large the same jobs you know maybe men going to answer a job and women into
Why privacy, safety, dignity and fair competition are the only places where sex matters
10:25
another one but that's choice so the places that are left are only places
10:31
where privacy safety dignity and fair competition come into force into play
10:39
most people really don't feel the same about undressing in front of someone of the opposite sex they don't know as
10:44
someone of the same sex we don't have mixed sex changing rooms for a bloody good reason
10:50
and that's true for both men and women but there's an extra factor for women which is that women as i said are the
10:57
subject of nearly all sex crimes and we don't have to go straight to rape to talk about that we can talk about
11:03
flashing and about voyeurism which are the two most common sex crimes and they're precursors to more serious
11:09
contact sex crimes they're nearly entirely perpetrated by male people against
11:14
female people and a major reason that we have separate changing rooms is so that women can undress
11:20
without having purvi men looking at them so that's why we separate changing rooms and also toilets by the way toilets more
11:26
private things go on in toilets than people really think about it's why we separate dormitories
11:32
it's certainly why we separate prisons and it's even more important there because obviously in prisons you have
11:37
criminals and the crimes that men and women commit are really very different
11:42
so i know the figures for the uk but they're very standard sorts of figures about four percent of the prison
11:48
population here is female 96 is male and the crimes that the women
11:53
commit are nearly entirely property crimes non-payment of tv licence or drug crimes or to do with
11:59
prostitution hardly any violent crimes and really hardly any sex crimes
12:05
in my own country ireland which is a much smaller country no woman had been convicted ever of a sex crime against an
12:11
adult until very recently so it's that rare for women to commit sex crimes the men it's about 20 percent
12:18
so thousands and thousands and thousands of men are in jail for sex crimes a handful of women
12:24
of course we have to keep them separate and then finally we have the actual biggest physical difference between men and women which is that men are much
12:31
much stronger in a civilized society if you're someone who's never been hit you may not know
12:37
that um i don't know that i'm lucky i've never been hit by a man lots of women have been
12:42
and even a very ordinary man or an older man can uh subdue a quite strong woman
12:49
the difference is considerable especially in upper body strength no woman who's ever been beaten can uh
12:55
continue to have some stupid idea like that men and women are equally strong so that matters for safety but it also
13:01
matters for sport so sport is all about finding and rewarding exceptional performance
13:08
and yet very unexceptional men can beat exceptional women so we've just seen that in the olympics
13:14
and we're in new zealand in the pacific islands sent a 43 year old male person who identifies as a woman laurel hubbard
13:20
this is somebody who's really out of shape suffered an almost career in ending injury to the shoulder or the
13:26
elbow i forget which a couple of years ago every other woman in the competition was in their 20s or teens
13:32
you're looking at all these superb physical specimens like the fittest strongest women in the world and you've got this flabby out-of-shape middle-aged
13:39
male who suffered a bad injury about two years ago and laurel hubbard did not actually get
13:44
placed in on the podium but uh beat every other every female
13:50
from new zealand and the pacific islands and to go to take that olympic sport so we know who the woman is who got left
13:56
behind she's a pacific islander teenager absolutely brilliant probably her biggest shot ever doing something
14:02
extraordinary and she lost out to a really really mundane ordinary male person
14:10
so yeah they're everywhere everywhere that sex matters where sex matters is safety privacy dignity and fair
14:15
competition and that is what is at stake for women if we allow people to say that they are
14:22
men or women according to what they prefer to say yeah you use the word clarity earlier which i
14:27
love to get clear on what we're talking about here i think it might be helpful to try to
14:34
put this in context in terms of the percentages right the historic percentages of
14:39
people in the world who identify as trans and what we're really talking about
14:45
there what that means in your research for the book in in the spirit of clarity what did you come
14:50
across what is what does that mean to you so research that was done decades ago
Helen talks about her research for her book, "Trans: When Ideology Meets Reality"
14:56
suggested that about one in thirty thousand men feel like they are were meant to be or you know how they really
15:01
were women inside whatever expression you want to use and maybe one in 120 000 women
15:07
so the numbers are absolutely tiny and the early medical treatment and the early legal accommodations were based on
15:13
that that it was tiny numbers so the first law anywhere in the world that allowed people to change their
15:19
birth certificate at a national level some american states have done this before but there's national law anywhere in the
15:25
world that allowed people to change their birth certificates uh on the strength of this feeling was
15:30
the gender recognition act here in the uk and that was in 2004 and they expected
15:36
about 5 000 people in the whole of the uk a country of more than 60 million people to do this and they were right
15:42
it's about six thousand now and the population is somewhat bigger so tiny numbers but those are people who
15:48
uh go through a medically gay process who get a diagnosis of what's called gender dysphoria which is the feeling of
Understanding gender dysphoria
15:54
extreme discomfort existing in your sex body like soda is so uncomfortable that you
16:00
can't work out how to live with it and the expectation was always that those people would have surgery and just
16:06
in case people listening to you have been listening to us have taken the wrong idea from discussions
16:12
they've heard especially online it's really not possible to change sex for a mammal when we're mammals so no mammal
16:17
has ever changed sex in fact what's commonly called or colloquially called sex change surgery is actually
16:23
cosmetic surgery on the genitals and perhaps on the chest as well um
16:29
basically the man gets castrated and the skin from the penis is used to make a neo vagina and then you might get breast
16:34
implants as well and for the woman it's a more complex operation that involves harvesting flesh from either the forearm
16:40
or the thigh and crafting a neophallus out but it's not particularly functional
16:46
um both sexes tend to take cross-sex hormones as well so so that's the sort of person like that most people think of
16:52
like when they think of a trans woman and they think like well why wouldn't that woman be allowed into changing rooms they assume the person has been
16:59
castrated honestly then they think you're talking about somebody who can't now commit a sex crime they
17:04
don't think well is it really appropriate for me to demand that somebody gets castrated in order to use this bathroom or that the
17:11
women in the bathroom have to find out whether you know whether this man has been castrated or not it's obviously not and
17:18
anyway since then all those conditions about surgery have gone but now it's just about self-id it's
17:23
just about what you say and now we really don't know what the numbers are because the definition is so
17:28
vague it's just what you say and it's incredibly different depending what age group you're talking about
The possible reasons why kids feel they don’t belong to their gender
17:35
so a recent survey suggested that maybe 10 of kids in american schools at least in
17:41
some cities identify as in some sense trans they don't want you i see your face they
17:46
don't all say that they're members of the opposite sex most of them identify as non-binary or gender queer or gender fluid or demi boy
17:53
or trans feminine or something like this um i mean i asked around i asked people who
18:00
live in liberal cities here in the uk and in the us and about 10 was what often people said to me if their kids
18:05
were about 15 they'd ask their kids you know how many kids in your class identify
18:11
as something other than their sex it was about 10 percent um the ones and they by no means all say
18:17
their gender dysphoria most of them don't they just say they don't feel like a girl they don't feel like a boy yeah
18:23
and that brings us to another question you know what would it mean anyway to say i feel like a member of the
18:28
opposite sex the only thing i know how to feel is how i feel and if you start from the premise that i
18:34
am female i just am it's not something i chose it's just something that happened when i popped into existence when
18:39
you know sperm fertilized an egg and a little female was created
18:45
anything i feel like is feeling like a female it just is by definition doesn't matter how masculine i am i have a phd
18:50
in mathematics it doesn't make me feel like i'm a man i'm a woman who did a phd in mathematics
18:56
so what could these kids mean when they say they don't feel like boys or girls i mean it has to be stereotypes it can't
19:03
be anything else well i like i'll explain that i think it's mostly stereotypes but i also think
19:09
it can be fleeing from things they don't like about our society so partly that is
19:14
stereotypes if you've got a kid who doesn't like you know what you're meant to like because you're a boy you're meant to like because you're a girl
19:21
but also i don't think we can overlook the horrific amount of porn that's seen by
19:26
children now in secondary school age it's really colossal and it's not good for either the boys or the girls
19:34
and it certainly makes the girls think they don't want to grow up to be girls and if they are girls who are likely to
19:40
grow up lesbian it's in particular horrible for them one of the young girls i interviewed for or the young women i interviewed for my
Helen cites the example of a female who underwent a full medical procedure and hysterectomy to become male - only to later realize that she was lesbian
19:46
book who actually went through a full medical procedure she had hysterectomy had her
19:51
ovaries removed all these things age 21 and 23 realized it was all a huge mistake and she was just lesbian
19:57
she said to me she never identified as a lesbian because she hated the word because to her that word meant
20:04
the videos she saw her classmates snickering over her male classmates videos of two women intended for men
20:11
so she felt the word was dirty it was destroyed for her and it seemed to her more reasonable
20:17
that she was really a boy and she also had an eating disorder very serious she was nearly she nearly died
20:22
she was hospitalized and then when she found the idea that maybe she was trying to starve away her
20:28
curbs because she was meant to be a boy that made some sense to her and the clinician that went along with
20:34
it as well he said that um would solve her anorexia if she transitioned so she took
20:39
testosterone she got her breasts removed she later got her hit her ovaries and her uterus removed and she was
20:45
considering getting this phalloplasty operation but she felt like she felt really awful
20:51
like she had a hysterectomy it's a huge operation it's really serious operation and she felt really bad
20:56
and everyone had said she'd feel loads better the newer she got to being a man the better she'd feel but she felt awful
21:02
both mentally and physically and she went online and she found these um chat rooms for women who had to have
21:08
hysterectomies because they had um cancer or endometriosis and they were lovely to her
21:13
and they really supported her in recovering from what's a major operation and then one day she just thought to
21:19
herself simple thought how can an operation that can only be
21:24
done to women turn a woman into a man and that's what i mean by clarity
21:32
that thought got her away from years of confusion she'd been confused for five years at that point
21:37
you know by this quest to do something that no one can actually do maybe change sex she didn't want to just appear like a
21:43
member of the opposite sex she wants to be a man she didn't want to be a woman and that's the children think you're telling them now they think you're
21:48
saying you can actually change sex they're not like old school transsexuals who used to think like you know i know perfectly well i'm a man i'm miserable
21:54
being a man i'll be happier if people think i'm a woman and they you know they've got reality
21:59
still in their head these children are being taken away from reality yeah and that thought made the
22:05
whole thing collapse for her and suddenly she was like but i am a woman how could i not be a woman obviously i'm a woman yeah
22:13
i have heard you speak in prior interviews as well relate about and correct me if i'm wrong about any of
22:18
this the the history of trans people in i think the english-speaking world generally and
22:25
how historically it has not been women who have been especially young women who
22:31
have been particularly interested in doing in in the tran in trans movements or becoming becoming a man and that that
22:38
has really specifically spiked in the last five or ten years um that's right
22:44
what what what do you what do you make of that what what is what is the
22:51
i know you've talked about the incentives that you think a lot of women are getting and kids generally are being asked questions from a very young age it
22:57
seems like very commonly to think about these things which gender
23:03
which gender they are and and last night when i was i was doing research for this conversation i was thinking about myself
23:08
when i was a boy and i absolutely had some feminine characteristics where i remember i was
23:13
12 i grew my hair long i was always very sensitive the awkwardness of being a teenager or a
23:20
young person generally if i would have been probed to think about these things there's no
23:26
doubt it would have fueled more confusion in me personally but it i think
23:31
with just anecdotally myself things just kind of eventually work out you get more comfortable in yourself you go through
23:38
puberty you become in my case a man and you become comfortable with with with yourself
23:44
obviously that isn't the case for every single person in the world um but i i do think that
23:50
one of the things that i i've heard you speak on before are details that i don't know me that many people are aware of which is specifically what is happening
23:57
to children um you know this is something i know jk rowling got tortured for
24:02
um when she spoke i think very candidly about what was going on go into the details related to this i
24:08
mean my my understanding is that in the uk there is still only one center where children can go through
24:15
often uh you know hormone treatment that could make them sterile or often do make them them sterile however in the u.s
24:22
it's much more available and kids can do this without parental consent i mean that's your question there oh my
24:29
god you're just so so rich what you've asked um i mean i'll start with the history stuff
24:35
um there's this thing that happens where trans activists or more general
24:40
generally people who believe that gender identity is enormously important they kind of co-opt
24:45
discussions or bits of history or things that happen outside western cultures and say that
24:51
that's trans so they'll talk about you know third gender there's just an umbrella term
24:56
people you know faffafina and samoa or the mushay in oaxaca or with two spirit people in indigenous
25:03
tribes and they say oh those people were trans and they don't notice the cultural specificity of these places that nearly
25:10
all of these are ways in which highly effeminate men male people can be identified out of manhood in order that
25:17
manhood remains the sort of preeminent thing in this very traditional hierarchical society so
25:22
that a man can be someone who heads a family who's a patriarch who is masculine who you know fathers children
25:29
all of those things so it's almost like clearing them out of the high status identity namely manhood you're not
25:34
normally allowed to go the other way you're not normally identified to identify out of womanhood because frankly most women would
25:40
in hierarchy in hierarch in a hierarchical patriarchal society identifying as a womanhood would mean
25:46
i get to inherit the form no you can't marry me off i keep the kids if we separate you know you're not allowed to
25:51
do any of those things those things aren't trans trans is a really recent construction
25:57
this idea that you have a sexed soul and that soul could not match your body a binary right it's a it's a yeah and it
26:04
went back about a century i would say i mean you know i'm not denying or disputing that there have always been
26:09
people who think they are meant to be members of the opposite sex there certainly have been those people it's been very rare because it's not an idea that would
26:15
occur to you naturally i mean we don't have the idea now that you were meant to be a different species
26:21
or that you were meant to be from a different planet you know because that's not in our culture it's not it's not an obvious
26:26
idea to occur to somebody and when it does occur to somebody it's usually somebody who's so highly
26:32
gendered or conforming that they're likely to be gay gender non-conforming children are much much statistically more likely to be gay
Why most gender non-conforming children are likely to be gay
26:38
than other kids i should caveat that there are loads of sweet little cute effeminate boys who grow up straight and
26:45
loads of little tomboy girls who grow up straight i'm just saying statistically a couple of dozen times more likely
26:50
probably and that's just that you know we know that from lots of studies don't worry about it if your kids like that let them
26:57
be they'll tell you what they are and they're teenagers um but anyway so those people sometimes in
27:02
a very rigid society sort of look at themselves and say why am i this way like why do i not like doing the things
27:08
that other boys do or that other girls do aha i must be somebody trapped in the wrong body you know that thought does
27:14
occur to people spontaneously without it being in the culture now it's in the culture so it's it's not
27:20
just you know occurring to people it's being forced dead to them it's being suggest sold to them
27:25
children are given teaching materials i looked at them i supported teaching materials from australia canada lots of u.s states here in the uk my own country
27:33
ireland and those materials like really tell
27:38
children that the stereotypes are what make you a boy or a girl or something in between so
27:43
you're encouraged to examine yourself like in a way that i mean really had gone out of date when i was a little girl for roman catholics
27:50
which i was brought up catholic at my father's generation my mother's generation they were expected to examine themselves
Helen explains what causes children to ruminate about their genders
27:56
weekly to see what their sins were before they went to confession
28:01
and really go back through the week and really think like what did i do that was bad or did i think that was bad it's at that level of kind of rumination these
28:08
children are being encouraged to ruminate about their genders and really you can make anyone miserable by encouraging rumination you know it's
28:15
exactly the opposite of cognitive behavioral therapy you know you're encouraging people to think themselves
28:20
into a sort of disordered or confused state and yet that's what's done
28:25
so of course lots more children now think that maybe they weren't boys or girls um i mean you know yes mostly the
28:31
gay ones because they're the highly gender non-conforming ones but basically everybody i mean nobody fits into the
28:36
pink or blue boxes properly but nobody's that bizarrely you know and there was a teaching material i saw here in the uk a
28:42
while ago produced by a lobby group called mermaids which promotes very early pediatric transitioning
28:49
and it said that had a gender spectrum and this sounds like i'm joking but i encourage people to look it up it had barbie at one end and gi joe with
28:56
the other and it said that everybody is somewhere on the spectrum nobody is barbie or gi joe so they're
29:01
telling everybody that they're meant to try and examine themselves so that's the background that's the water that the
29:07
children are swimming in and now you think like who's who's likely to get most miserable and
29:12
confused by this well i've said children who are going to grow up gay what about the autistic kids who already
29:19
feel really quite uncomfortable autistic spectrum disorder kids often bodily disease comes with and with
29:25
autism you feel weird the other kids think you don't fit in you look and you say why am i not like other people
29:32
so they're highly overrepresented some gender clinics for kids say half of all the people they see half of the kids are
29:38
on the autistic spectrum disorder kids who've been abused in the family that causes feelings of bodily
29:44
dissociation hatred of their own sex characteristics just generally very troubled kids kids
29:51
who would have self-harmed or would have had eating disorders now explain to
29:56
themselves miserable feelings they have in terms of gender because that's the thing that they're told and it's also
30:02
sold as a magical cure you're told that when you work out what your gender is and you start to live as your gender
30:07
life will be brilliant it's all these videos you know now i feel like myself now i know who my true self is
30:15
that's such a it's such a powerful message to a miserable kid to shape their misery into this
30:20
narrative that allows them to cure it so what happens about the ones who are most extreme about this the ones who
30:26
come out to their parents and you know their parents don't just say that's fine darling
30:32
you do what you like boys can wear dresses it's grand if you want to do ballet we'll work it out whatever what
30:37
happens with those kids is they get funneled towards a pediatric gender clinic here in the uk we have just one
30:43
that's correct so i should say that's in england there's a separate one in scotland and
30:49
they have seen the numbers go from i think it's about a hundred to about two and a half thousand about in less than a
30:54
decade of the referrals and that's just the tip of the iceberg like i mean i said as i said ten percent of kids
31:00
around age fourteen fifteen in liberal cities are going to identify some sort of
31:05
special gender identity but these are the really miserable kids the kids who are really sure that they want medical treatment
31:12
and if you start from the premise that people can have a gender identity that doesn't match their body and that there
31:17
are adults who are trans and those adults are miserable because their bodies don't match their identities then it doesn't seem too big
31:24
a step to try to fix the body early so that the child can grow up happy in
31:29
the body they were meant to have like if you think that there's pink brains and blue bodies or something
31:35
and that's the thinking that inspired the current treatment pathway which has now really been questioned here in the uk and it's just starting to be
31:41
questioned in the us so what they do is they give children puberty blockers which is a very benign
What happens when children are given puberty blockers?
31:48
name for a really major drug it does a really big thing it stops it stops one step in the signal that
31:55
starts puberty but puberty is not just your sex development puberty is this huge developmental
32:01
spirit the biggest one that you have since babyhood i think back to it you know you remember how much you changed you know you
32:07
changed from a boy to a man and not just in your body and your brain yeah but it stops that it halts that process
32:14
and it probably does other things too we don't know seems to harm your bone development probably harms your brain development
32:20
and your cognitive development but anyway it holds puberty and the idea of this is to buy time
32:25
so why are we buying time well one thing is that we know that most kids who feel strong gender dysphoria
32:31
actually grow out of it figures are disputed but every study that has ever been done finds that
32:38
somewhere between 70 and maybe probably nearer to 90 percent of small children who express gender dysphoria will grow out of it around
32:44
puberty so the thinking was have a pause don't let the body develop the kids who are going to desist will desist the kids
32:50
who are going to persist will persist the disasters can pick up puberty where they left off
32:55
the persisters can go along this pathway without having gone through these bodily changes that'll be hard to undo
33:00
and also the other thing that they're thinking was cross-sex hormones are irreversible
Helen’s thoughts on ‘informed consent' in American Medicine
33:06
if you give a girl testosterone her voice will break and it'll never unbreak sugar facial hair can't stop that
33:11
without having laser surgery there's a treatment um boys will grow breasts if you give them
33:17
estrogen etc etc so why not wait why not wait until this kid kid decides he's old enough to
33:23
decide for themselves whether they want to do these things um but then they discovered they all decide
33:29
all of them decide if you give them puberty blockers they all decide to have cross sex warnings like 98 to 99
33:35
so it wasn't a pause button at all it was just a way of saying to 10 and 12 year old children's parents look this is
33:41
europe this is reversible and actually what you're doing is you're giving them cross-sex hormones you're just
33:46
you're not admitting that's what you're doing and so there's a big court case here it
33:52
was then appealed and overturned and now they're seeking permission to um to pick it up again at the supreme
33:57
court so i won't go into details on the ruling but anyway the contention of this girl this young
34:02
woman kiera bell who was given puberty blockers and then cross-sex hormones is that they just put her straight on this
34:08
pathway they didn't investigate all the other awful things that had happened in her life to make her identify out a girl who had led a really difficult childhood
34:15
and she's lesbian as well and so that's underway
34:21
um in the u.s there are i think about 60 full service pediatric gender clinics but there are literally hundreds of
34:27
places that children can get puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones mostly with parental consent often with
34:33
what's called um informed consent which is one of the most ridiculous expressions i've ever heard in american medicine and my god
34:40
you guys turn out some awful nonsense and medicine it's it's like the opposite of informed consent you sign saying you got yourself
34:48
informed so you're signing away your right to sue and then they don't bother telling you anything they'll just give it to you
34:54
and but there are also states where children can do it without getting parental consent and there's a lot of push to make that commoner and younger
35:01
and so on kids put on puberty blockers kids put on cross-sex hormones now the last thing
35:07
i'll say to respond to your question was like what's the consequences of this for somebody well
35:13
i knew this three years ago when i started looking into it and i was told i was exaggerating and i was um being
35:19
alarmist but actually two of america's best known gender doctors have admitted
35:24
it in the past two weeks in interviews to abigail troyer and if you put a kid
What are the consequences of putting young children on puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones?
35:31
who's so young they haven't had full adult orgasms on puberty blockers and they go straight
35:36
on across six hormones they won't ever have an orgasm and you don't become fertile unless you go
35:42
through your own puberty at least to some extent that's how it works these are our bodies they're not machines that
35:48
you can mess up with so that you can pause or you can turn them into a different thing you know a girl is born with every egg
35:54
she's ever going to have already in her ovaries and they start to mature when she goes through puberty
36:01
if she never goes through puberty she will never have an orgasm and she will never be fertile she'll be sterile not
36:06
just infertile like i was infertile i had to do ivf treatment to get my kids she'll be sterile yeah she will be a
36:13
sexless creature and she will probably have to go on and have other her other sex organs removed
36:18
because they need eastern to stay well it's the same for the boys a boy who has not gone part way down
36:24
male puberty will not have orgasms and will be sterile he'll never even start to produce sperm and that's even if he
36:30
doesn't have operations so what we are doing is at age 10 11 12
36:35
we are setting children and remember that these are troubled children or children who are a lot of them autistic
36:41
spectrum disorder a lot of them gay we're destined to grow up gay we are setting them on the path
36:47
to sterility and when you see that clearly you realize you're looking at a massive
36:52
massive medical scandal yeah
36:59
i know in prior interviews as well that you've talked about the consequences of this related to
37:06
um prisons too and that's something i've heard you speak at length about and
37:11
i used to live in california and and the comment that i remember hearing you make when i was watching one of your
37:16
interviews last night was related to what california has recently implemented as i understand it
37:22
what i got out of your comment was that it seemed like california
37:27
essentially was allowing all of its inmates to basically decide themselves which gender they were and based upon
37:34
that decision would be categorized and placed into a
37:39
specific facility for that gender um we've talked about kids and
37:46
the consequences of what what's going on with with children what's what are the consequences with
37:52
prisons what are the details of what's going on in california how has this been playing out in your judgment
Helen discusses the consequences of California allowing its prison inmates to decide their gender
37:58
so when i started to look into this i thought that once you said to people they're putting rapists in women's jails
38:06
that people would go oh oh my god i think really that can't be ha we've got to stop that
38:12
i can't even really explain it but people don't do that they say you're saying all trans women are rapists which
38:18
is just not not the proposition i'm saying they are actually putting rapists in women's jails just as a fact
38:24
so i think what happened there was it's him governor newsom it was a policy before the last election
38:30
that he would um allow the way it was put is that he would um allow people to be in prison held in prisons and now and
38:36
convicts to be held in prisons consonant with their gender identity which if you don't know what's going on
38:42
sounds okay like you might think like i don't know what people think because i've forgotten what it was like and i didn't know all this stuff
38:48
like i guess people think that there really are identifiable trans people that you know
38:54
there really are some people that you can do medical tests and you can say oh this person has you know a woman's brain and a man's body or something i think
39:00
that's what they must think or they think they've all gone through surgery and they imagine what it would be like to be like really visually
39:06
indistinguishable from a woman and put in a man's jail which would be pretty awful i think we can both agree they don't realize that what the
39:12
activists are saying is that they just that what's the policy is actually that when you're um sentenced to jail you're asked which
39:18
jail you want to go to you know do you identify as a man woman or non-binary and if you're non-binary
39:23
which which prison do you think you should be in and so hundreds of american of californian and convicts have declared
39:31
cross-sex identities as far as i know all male people who identify as female or non-binary wanting to go into a
39:37
female jail the other way around funnily enough female people don't tend to want to be held in men's prisons
39:43
and not all of them by any means have got transfer and i can only assume that this is people on the ground going hang
39:49
on this guy is a multiple sadistic rapist and he's telling me he wants to move to
39:54
a female jail anyway lots of multiple sadistic rapists have already been moved to female jails not just in california
40:00
and not just in the u.s and it's hard to get figures on them because the other thing that happens at
40:06
the same time is to record these people as being what they say they are
40:11
so i came across some individual cases just to give you um you know like to sort of clarify this for people
40:18
and one of them was sort of an early one a few years ago before this had become absolute dogma that you have to put
40:23
prisoners into whatever prison they identify as and this is a bloke who um he's an erotic cross-dresser
40:30
so when his wife was out she used to dress up in her clothes and look i doubt she liked that very much but on
40:35
the other hand this isn't a terrible thing to do i i have sympathy with people who have unusual sexualities that's fine i'm not saying he's a bad
40:42
man for that but anyway he was obviously very ashamed about it because when she came home early and
40:47
found him in her clothes he killed her and he killed her by throttling her with a piano wire and he pulled so hard he
40:52
nearly took her head off and then he um fled in a car and he was picked up a day or two later and he
40:58
claimed a red mist had come over him and then he said he really was a woman that's why he was wearing women's
41:04
clothes and a whole bunch of american human rights organizations backed him and said that he needed to be
41:09
transferred to women's jail and that is the moment i think when any feminist or anyone who cares at all
41:16
about women's rights and the same people who say um you know believe all women or
41:21
um you know me too or something like this the same people who say these slogans like they're the ones that were
41:26
saying yes let's put this man who decapitated his wife into women's prisons i'm sure the other women will really like that
41:32
that's the moment and you have to stop and think to yourself something's wrong here um it's a bit like proofs in mathematics
41:39
like as i said i have a phd in mathematics and there's a type of proof that's called reductio ad absurdum
What is ‘reductio ad absurdum’ in mathematics? How does it hold significance in gender conversations?
41:45
so you start with the premise and you don't know whether that premise is true or not you're genuinely trying to find out and you make a series of logical
41:51
deductions and at some point you get to nonsense something you know is not true yeah and then you can go back and you
41:56
can say your starting position was false so if you start from the premise that
42:02
people are men or women according to what they say they are and you get to the point that you're
42:07
putting a man and decapitated his wife or nearly decapitated his wife into a woman's prison to me that's the point
42:12
that you go back to your starting assumptions yeah and say okay there's something wrong with gender self identification
42:18
anyway that's what american human rights organizations do now they argue for rapists and murderers or women to be put
42:23
into women's jails the question when we were talking about the
42:29
the kid frankly i think most of the information you know most people don't know right right and
42:34
this is part of the reason why i wanted to talk to you in such detail is to allow you to articulate all of this
42:40
to go back to what is happening to children and the enormous spike of
42:47
claims by young people that they're potentially trans or they're confused
42:52
about which which uh which sex is correct for them or which gender is right for them
42:58
how common how ubiquitous are i assume it's literature that is being introduced in certain types of classes
43:07
how common is this which which classes are are being infiltrated with this kind of literature
43:12
um is it worse in some countries than others how do you see that
Helen talks about gender literature in different countries
43:18
well i think it's very bad in canada and very bad in what you might call blue america
43:24
no but it's in red america too it tends to come in originally in something that's called usually like sex
43:30
relationships and health education you know pshe we call it here personal sex and health personal social and health
43:37
education yeah and often you're allowed to take your kid out for those classes in case you're somebody who's from a
43:43
conservative religious background and you don't want your children learning certain things activists have often um
43:49
you know argued against that and with someone you know with some reason actually i don't think it's reasonable to say that children
43:55
shouldn't learn that there are gay people or shouldn't learn that there are people who identify out of their sex
44:01
but it also comes in under anti-bullying because of course a lot of bullying a lot of it is racist but a lot of it is
44:07
actually homophobic as well and so these things get woven into all the other classes as well and again you
44:13
know with some justification i can see why somebody would say you know we need it to be a whole school practice that we
44:20
fight homophobia fight racism but then they add fight transphobia and one of the extraordinary things
44:26
about this movement is the way that ordinary people understand the words and the insiders understand
44:31
the words so if by transphobia you meant you know mocking and hating and
What is transphobia?
44:36
attacking and insulting somebody who presents as a member of the opposite sex
44:42
or asks you to call them by a name or pronouns that belong to the opposite sex that's obviously very bad
44:48
we've had laws stopping that in this country for a quarter century america's very behind on that
44:53
but that's not what they mean by transphobia what they mean is arguing that there is actually a thing that's
44:59
biological sex and it can't be changed so according to them i'm a transphobe for just saying human beings come in two
45:04
types male and female that's transphobic yeah so in this anti-bullying education
45:10
you're telling kids all sorts of flat lies you know that it's possible to change
45:15
sex the sex is very hard to determine that sex is a spectrum
45:20
that you know sex is really irrelevant comparative someone tells you about themselves and by the way that's a massive safeguarding risk
45:27
child safeguarding i discovered when writing the book is really behind in america you really have not
45:33
properly formulated how you keep children safe from predatory adults and most adults aren't predators but my
45:39
god they're very good at finding weaknesses and coming in so we've had a series of you know awful
45:45
scandals here as have you but you seem not to learn from them in the catholic church and elsewhere
45:50
you know here we've had the catholic church we've had boy scouts we've had this guy jimmy savile who was a children's entertainer who turned out to
45:56
be a very prolific vicious pedophile and it really revolutionized child safeguarding also what happened in
46:02
boarding schools i should say and with child safeguarding you have to be really very clear what
46:07
sex people are because males are really a risk in a way that females aren't
46:12
you don't put children over 10 who are opposite sex together in rooms you don't
46:17
make it a situation where children can't bring their worries or their objections you would certainly not accept a teacher
46:24
who is male presenting himself as female to children and saying he's female like yeah wear a dress fine fine absolutely
46:30
grand grow your hair along no problem but everybody has to be really clear about biological reality for
Why it’s essential to be clear about biological reality for child safeguarding
46:36
safeguarding and if somebody wants to ask a question they shouldn't be worrying about getting the wording right
46:41
or am i going to get called a bigot if i ask this or whatever so so all of this is really driven to
46:46
coaching horses through char safeguarding too so that's all the schools stuff but i
46:51
would say that for kids of 15 or even maybe kids of 12 and over i would say more important is what they see online
46:59
so somebody once described to me tumblr as the island of the lord of the flies
47:04
so that's where the children bring themselves up with no adults around and tango was like this cesspit of nonsense
47:11
like you know they until they were really forced to they allowed people to share materials glorifying self-harm and
47:18
eating disorders so there were these huge communities called pro anna ana
47:24
anna's anorexia and that's where girls would go to get what they called finnsbow with inspiration um where you
47:29
would go and you would get you know they would encourage each other like today all i asked was some lemon water you can
47:35
do it you know sharing pictures of you know how skinny they were sharing pictures of their own self-harm like tamara allowed this for
47:41
years years and years until they were forced not to but it's also it was the home of gender
47:46
[ __ ] i'm allowed to say that so all the girls that i talked to in their late teens and early 20s every single one of
47:52
them came across this stuff on tumblr first and that's where they got all these sort of um
47:58
catchphrases like you know have you interrogated your gender today and also it's a there's a very strict
48:04
hierarchy on tumblr where you know the worst thing you can be is to be cis white straight male
48:11
and the second worst thing you can be is cis white stripe female and you can't identify out of any of the
48:18
other things well they all i must say they all do identify as neurodivergents or on the spectrum or whatever things that
48:23
no one can check but the one thing that you can give yourself to get a bit of credit is a gender identity
48:29
so you get all these bizarre gender identities and then you know if that's all it is in a way i don't care this is
48:34
just kids experimenting like it was goths in previous generation or whatever but like when they start to medicalize
48:41
themselves then i care or if it makes the boys think they can go into girls changing rooms then i start to care or
48:47
it makes the if it's linked to girls you know i mean i'm old enough that i
48:54
was brought up in much more sexist times in one way but much less sexist in another and actually the sexism is what
49:00
informed my feminist consciousness so i remember reading blyton books and i don't know if you had them in america
49:06
anyway there's the famous five they're five kids and well four kids and a dog and one of
49:11
the girls is called george and she's georgina but she won't let anyone call her georgina she keeps her hair short
49:16
and she always tries to do things the boys and she gets crossed when they say the girl this is too dangerous for girls and they're always saying things like um
49:23
you know george is nearly as good as a boy and that's what made me a feminist yeah so these girls you know they look
49:30
around them they see the porn they see prostitution being glorified they see surrogacy being the next big human
49:35
rights move you know they hear about the epidemic of rape not being
49:41
prosecuted and somebody says you can identify out of that and so they think oh yeah fine okay
49:46
they're not able to identify out of that a rapist doesn't ask you your gender identity absolute [ __ ]
49:52
but it's taking away from them the chance to forge a sort of anger
49:57
that could make the world better they're not making the world better they're opting out of it yeah
50:02
and i i know how much blowback you've gotten for for this and for speaking so
50:09
candidly about all these subjects and all this information and i'd love for you to and i'm sure this is
50:15
something you thought a lot about what you think the ethical solution is here right the reasonable
50:20
solution here uh the balanced solution the informed solution what in your mind and maybe we
50:27
can you know limit this to the uk and in america but really i think it could apply almost
50:32
anywhere what do you think is the is the right way forward here in terms of how we think about these subjects
What is the right way to think about matters of gender?
50:40
i think we need to remember that we live in a pluralistic secular democracy
50:46
and that means that people have differing opinions and differing you know life
50:52
views and shapes and um goals and morals and so on and that's all fine and
50:58
we protect that here and i think you do in america as well you have them religion as a protected characteristic and
51:03
in your human rights though it certainly is here it's called religion or belief and that includes
51:08
lack of religion or belief so we already know how to think about
51:14
people having very strongly differing and opposing opinions and people have to work with people with
51:20
very differing opinions all the time like in any size of the workplace you are going to have some people who think
51:25
that all gay people are going to hell and you're going to have some gay people and they have to work together and they
51:31
both have protected characteristics under british human rights law both of them should be able to say what
51:36
they think you know in a polite way in a non-harassing way in a way that doesn't discriminate against the other
51:43
um they both them have to give space to the other two you know you can't like so if you weren't if you
51:48
were a religious employer here you certainly couldn't refuse to invite your male and employees husbands if you were
51:55
i had a work event you couldn't say you know only opposite sex partners that would be discrimination
52:01
but neither do you have to say that you think the gay marriage is right if you don't so i think that's the starting point for
52:07
me is this is a belief system it's the best way to think about it some people think that what makes you
52:14
a man or a woman is what you say you are i think of that as very like a sexed soul i don't believe in souls at all i'm
52:20
an atheist but if other people want to believe in sex souls that's fine by me
52:25
i have to think how do we accommodate each other and where are the harms so i mean i think that if you think that
52:32
there are sex souls you still shouldn't be allowed to sterilize children i think that we've already
52:37
looked at questions like that when it comes to say jehovah's witnesses and blood transfusion yeah the jehovah's witness can project a blood transfusion
52:43
for themselves they count for their child so i think if somebody thinks that children have gendered souls or sex
52:49
souls or whatever they certainly shouldn't be allowed to sterilize their children because of that
52:54
and then when you come to um public spaces you know we create public spaces for
52:59
everybody in order to live a whole full sec self-actualized life and we make accommodations for different sorts of
53:05
people and here the analogy how it draws with disability so i don't need to have steps down at
53:11
the curb my mother does she has ms and she uses a mobility buggy i'm really happy that there are steps down at curbs for her
53:18
and blind people need you know um crossings to beep and what we start with is what are
53:24
people's needs what do different groups need in order to play a full part in society
53:30
and sometimes those needs are sex-based and sometimes they're belief-based and sometimes those things interact
53:36
and i'm thinking about women-only swimming sessions in areas where you have a high muslim population yeah and
53:42
those women won't go and use those that's not cool at all if males can be there so that's a situation where we think
53:48
like how do we make this world a good world to live in for women from traditional muslim
53:53
communities okay that's one of the idea um adaptations we can make so
53:59
if there are people who feel that they're really members of the opposite sex we have to think how do we accommodate them how do we make sure that they
54:05
aren't you know stuck at home because they can't find a toilet they can use you know they're not squeezed out of
54:10
work they're not mocked any of those things but we also have to think about other people the great majority of people in fact now
54:17
it shouldn't matter that it's the great majority i'm just saying it is that most women feel really strongly
54:22
that they don't want males in places where they undress so we have to have places that women can be where males can't be
54:29
where they need to undress that's even more important for religious women for whom it's a religious edict as well
54:36
but then the people who don't think of themselves as members of their sex they also need spaces so we need third spaces
54:41
for them and if we've got trans-identifying male prisoners i absolutely don't want them
54:46
in with the general male population of course i don't they'll be really at risk yeah and they are the analogy would be with
54:52
gay men who really are at risk and prisons as well and i mean often in prisons they have to make special accommodation for
54:58
those men so i don't think there's a totalizing like this is how we should think about it we need to think about human beings
55:04
and what they need and how those needs can be best addressed in a pluralistic society
55:10
without trampling on other people and it'll be you know there'll be analogies for some bits of it that work
55:16
and sometimes it'll be you know nothing like anything else but anyway if we start from the needs and how we can
55:22
address them yeah then we get a long way i think earlier in the conversation you you used
55:28
the word dogma and you also alluded earlier about the fact that when you started
55:35
just inquiring about these subjects it was clear you were being encouraged not to ask
55:40
questions um i mentioned before we started recording that i had carol houven on last week
55:46
when we we were talking in her expertise is testosterone and we were talking about the a lot of similar subjects uh related to
55:53
what we talked about today and she's getting i think a lot of the uh name calling that i think you've
56:00
experienced right it's an attempt of like a reputational kill shot
56:05
to try to discredit someone and to ruin their reputation um
56:10
one of the things that she and i talked about which i think is always important for people to keep in mind is that within the trans community there are
56:17
divergent views this is not a monolith of people who all agree about every single thing although
56:23
it feels that way i want to spend a little time talking about that fact and talking about what
56:30
to me seems like a dictatorial aspect to language and changing language
56:38
that seems somewhat orwellian to me in this entire discussion and
56:45
you can kind of take that however you would like and and speak to it but
56:50
um what do you i'm always curious about small groups of
56:56
people that pack such a big punch culturally that they can have this outsized effect on
57:02
how we are speaking and living our lives if you have any information on this what
57:08
what is the genesis of this is there an organized group of activists who truly are
57:16
this kind of like bolshevik type you know group in the shadows who's a small but very formidable
57:23
organization or group who's who's had this kind of effect on language
57:28
the reason i'm laughing is because i get accused of saying that there's a shadowy conspiracy of jews behind all of this
57:35
now you've read my book i mean i don't mention jewish people except very very early on when i
57:40
mentioned that one of the gender doctors is jewish and the reason i mention it is because the nazis hated him so no i don't actually think there's a
57:47
shadowy group of any sort jewish or otherwise um i think it's part of a broader cultural
57:53
turn i think it's a lot of things of course all of this is perfect storm material isn't it it's a lot of things coming together
57:59
um okay so one thing is academia i didn't realize until i wrote this book how
58:06
strongly conformist academia is um you know i considered being an academic and i was for a while before i
58:11
moved out of it but i sort of thought that's where you went to you know be free of the pressures of everyday life
58:16
that you could think big thoughts and you know that's where our most brilliant minds did their most fearless work actually
58:22
discussion open discussion absolute [ __ ] i mean it's just the pla it's the most conformist place there is and
58:29
all the all the um pressures make it more conformist because that you publish each other's work you get invited to
58:34
conferences by each other you get appointed by each other you know like if you're in a general workplace and your job is like making posters for
58:40
conferences basically your boss doesn't care what you think about most things they just want you to make good posters for conferences but academia's output is
58:46
its thought so they do care what you think and they hire you you know because your thought is brilliant meaning
58:53
the same as theirs so it's the most conformist place and academia has taken a really bigger heart
59:00
in our culture in the past half century continually like half of kids go to university now
59:05
and loads of people are employed not just as academics but as academic administrators and as adjuncts and all
59:11
of this it's a really really big part of modern society and it's intensely conformist
59:17
and it's also taken this turn towards identitarianism so by that what i mean is thinking about
59:23
people as collections of identities and not just objective identities because actually our objective
59:28
identities are very important like it makes a huge difference to your life chances whether you're black or white whether you're male or female you know
59:34
what your nationality is it's seeing all of these as being things that are internal to people and that are
59:39
self-chosen and that you make yourself and that you identify as things and also then thinking about how we
59:47
liberate people from the the constraints those identities might bring
59:52
now i mean you know an old-fashioned sort of practical materialist approach
59:57
to politics you'd think okay look you know black kids are not getting as good education as white kids are what are the
1:00:03
interventions that we could do should we be spending more money in poorer school districts should we be insisting on more
1:00:10
teacher training should we give them more teachers what should we do you know more school meals what but this one is all about like what do
1:00:16
people call themselves and so the liberation becomes messing around with the definitions
1:00:21
strangely like that's never liberated anyone from anything i can't identify myself out of anything that came with being female by
1:00:27
pretending i'm not female it just distracts me you in my opinion so i think we can't ignore the role of
1:00:33
academia and all of what has happened and that also is why there is so much
1:00:39
name calling because this is such a linguistically driven movement they have to police language and they
1:00:46
have to try to silence people who don't agree with them i mean if you if you take this post-modernist turn which
1:00:51
started maybe in the 1990s on american campuses and it went back a bit further but if you take that like
1:00:58
reality is made by language as opposed to language describing reality and when that was first thought in the 1950s 60s
1:01:05
70s by french post-modernists it was very interesting thing to think because there isn't a world out there
1:01:10
like completely independent of us that we can just describe that's not the way it works our describing changes it to some extent
1:01:17
so it was a very clever thing to think but that came to be that the world is what we described we make it with our
1:01:23
words and if that's what you think then you must control people's words very tightly
1:01:29
because a person who speaks their own words makes the wrong reality so if i am to say of a trans woman
1:01:36
you're male like they hear that as hate speech literal hate speech even though it's actually the literal truth it is
1:01:42
impossible to be a trans woman if you're not male it just you just can't do it it's definitional but if i say you're male
1:01:49
i'm i'm making a bad world and that's why they sound like they're chanting
1:01:54
catechisms all the time like i was at a conference over the weekend a feminist conference and here in the uk it was
1:01:59
wonderful all these women inside talking about you know global women's liberation they were
1:02:04
we had a an internet connection with a um refugee camp in kenya and there's this particular area where they held the
1:02:10
lesbians and i mean these these women are in constant risk of their lives like people are killed their children are killed they're subject to corrective
1:02:17
rape they can't turn to the guards for help the u.n is ignoring them you know they were crying you could see look
1:02:22
around the room you can see all these thousand women watching this this call many people crying and outside we hear
1:02:28
trans women are women trans women or women sounds exactly like
1:02:33
church when i was a child and they go through this and when we came out there's signs am i allowed to say some bad words for sure
1:02:40
okay one of the great signs that they had outside so remember we're talking to people in india and nigeria and so on
1:02:45
around the world inside and outside there's a sign so saying suck my dick you transphobic accounts
1:02:55
and amnesty supported this amnesty uk supported this protest so inside we've got the lesbians talking
1:03:02
to us about corrective rape and outside we've got amnesty supporting people who think we're transphobic [ __ ]
1:03:08
so you know it's upside down world um it's about repeating mantras and that's
1:03:14
partly about making this better world through language but it's also i think about what's
Helen explains thought control, thought termination, self-censorship
1:03:21
called thought termination there's a great book called um um thought control
1:03:27
in what's called um thought control and totalism i think in communist china
1:03:32
and it's about the methods whereby you can live in a totalitarian state because mostly it's not the police that control
1:03:38
what people think it's mostly you yourself yeah and of course that's done by fear and it's done by seeing what happens to
1:03:44
other people if they step out of line but mostly it's done by training yourself not to think things that you shouldn't
1:03:50
and the guy who wrote that edward j lifton he created this phrase the thought terminating cliche
1:03:56
and that's the thing when your mind starts to ramble along a chain of thought that you think might
1:04:01
bring you somewhere dangerous so that where you think just have hang on they said that they're asking the convicts
1:04:07
when they're sent to prison which prison they want to go to hmm aren't a lot of people who are in men's
1:04:12
prisons they're hooray that bit where you start you're about to think something that you know will bring you
1:04:18
into dangerous waters you just think trans women are women trans women are women
1:04:24
yeah so that's why it's so orwellian it has to be about language so much it has
1:04:30
to go by controlling the words
1:04:35
how do you explain its success so far right i mean this has really taken over
1:04:42
even if you remain agnostic about your conclusions related to a lot of these topics
1:04:47
the just having a discussion like this cannot seemingly cannot happen in most
1:04:53
of high culture right now well this movement came along at this moment when we were doing the silencing
1:05:01
so you know i have loads of friends now who were really early in the gay liberation movement um
1:05:07
you know people who set up the organizations that fought for and not just gay marriage but like actually against really discriminatory
1:05:13
laws and they were at a time when language was less policed
1:05:18
so awful things were said to and about them and they had to rebut them yeah but now and i don't think that was good
1:05:24
by the way i don't think the things they were called were good i'm just i'm just making a factual statement that that movement arose in times that we were
1:05:30
allowed to speak more freely including some horrible things that people said so this movement has come along at this
1:05:36
moment when we're far more sensorious about what people think is what people say and
1:05:41
we put much more weight on what people say and again some of that's good i don't think people should be called the awful things that people record in the
1:05:47
1970s and 80s if they were gay or black or whatever but some of it's not good some of it's just
1:05:52
it's about trying to really restrict what you could possibly think like just even chains of thought to interrupt
1:05:58
chains of thought that might lead you somewhere inconvenient but true so that's a big part of it is just the
1:06:03
moment that this is arisen and also i think it's arisen after a series of
1:06:09
all of them different from each other but with some commonalities like liberation movements we could say so i think you know ending slavery
1:06:17
women's franchise ending the jim crow laws gay liberation same-sex marriage
1:06:22
and it's created this narrative of progress that sees progress as being bringing groups in from the cold and
Why Helen believes the narrative of progress is bringing marginalized groups in from the cold - and how this is unlike other social justice movements
1:06:29
that's a reasonable narrative but it creates a sort of like if you if you were a novelist writing this
1:06:35
you'd know what the next episode would be it would be the next group brought in from the cold the next marginalized
1:06:41
group and then comes along a group that makes a claim that's nothing like any of those previous groups like every one of
1:06:47
those previous groups was saying i'm unjustly denied universal human rights
1:06:54
like the right to marry the right to work the right to hold on to a job after getting married the right to vote those
1:07:00
things that other people are totally unjustly given and i'm not and and now comes a group that says you
1:07:06
know my my demand is treated as the sex that i'm not and one of these things is
1:07:12
not like the others so i think yeah it's a narrative inevitability if that's a phrase that
1:07:18
exists if it isn't i've created it and arriving at this censorious moment when
1:07:23
we have placed so much store on language and i think you can't ignore the fact
1:07:29
that it's men who want this nobody gives a [ __ ] about women is the thing that i've learned in the past
1:07:34
three years that they really really really don't and you know formally this is a
1:07:40
symmetric thing men can identify as women and women can identify as men we only ever hear about the trans women and
1:07:45
they're men so we only ever hear about male people who want access to things that they're
1:07:51
not actually entitled to and yet it's and so it seems that i think a lot of men can really appreciate
1:07:58
that in a way that makes me think they don't actually think they're women like there's a load of men who in
1:08:03
particular came in here a lot of you know very very sexist gay men who complain a lot about women like me
1:08:09
and really in very sexualized and disgusting ways and they're you know they care so much
1:08:16
about trans women and not at all about nato women and i look at them and i think you know you're really demonstrating that you
1:08:22
don't actually think they're women because if you thought they were women you wouldn't give a [ __ ] yeah so yeah it's a it's a men's rights
1:08:28
mutant you know i look at those men outside with those signs outside that feminist
1:08:34
conference and you know i'm relatively late to this sort of feminist organizing but there were lots of women in there
1:08:40
who've been doing this since their teams you know women who've worked and volunteered in rape crisis shelters and domestic violence shelters and women who
1:08:46
work internationally with women who have suffered female genital mutilation or you know some of the worst sort of
1:08:52
honor killings and honor beatings and so on and they don't see this as anything out
1:08:58
of the ordinary for a men's rights movement they say this is what happens when men want something and women say no
1:09:04
yeah you know women have no power in our society compared to men who want stuff so when you think this is a men's rights
1:09:10
movement it's much easier to see how it has managed to go so far
1:09:16
for people like yourself who have these conversations who write books
1:09:21
like you you've kind of been through the fire with a lot of this online and i i have
1:09:27
to just add as a comment i think you're part of it just in my own life seeing people
1:09:33
censor themselves which i think is kind of your your point is that a lot of censorship is self-censored
1:09:39
censorship um they are terrified of being
1:09:44
ridiculed or having their reputation damaged digitally online and i think there's a there's this
1:09:50
an element of why this has been so effective because of the the time we're living in which i think you were i
1:09:55
should have said that the internet is obviously crucial to all of this both in the spread of the idea and in the dissociation from bodily reality that is
1:10:01
so central to it please continue i would love to know what your advice would be for somebody
1:10:07
who has an idea for a book or is wants to embark on
1:10:12
historically legitimate journalistic endeavors to ask questions that people clearly don't
1:10:19
want to be asked but are human you know they they are worried about their reputation as anyone
1:10:26
would be what have you learned that you would give as advice for
1:10:33
you know whether it's related to strategies or just principles to keep in mind for
1:10:38
you know people like yourself who are into open discussion are into open information and and clarity as you said
Helen’s three bits of advice for journalists who are committed to open discussion and open debate
1:10:45
earlier yeah i'd like to give three parts to that answer and i've been thinking about it a lot recently because
1:10:52
i've been looking at what's been happening to my friend and uh not co-author an all my book but fellow
1:10:58
author and kathleen stoke who's a philosopher here in the uk who wrote a book that came out a few months before
1:11:03
mine called material girls that makes many of the same points she's an academic philosopher
1:11:08
and she has come under really really horrific sustained harassment including
1:11:14
in real life on campus and it's been going on for about three years and only extremely recently
1:11:19
did her employer do anything about it she's now not able to go to campus she's been advised to stay at home put cctv on
1:11:26
her house not answer the phone you know et cetera et cetera and it's really taken a toll on her and i'm fine
1:11:33
the difference is that my employer isn't a coward so the first bit of advice i would give to somebody who wants to do anything
1:11:39
like this is um be independently wealthy
1:11:45
don't be i'm not independently wealthy but my employer cares about free speech and doesn't like bullies
1:11:50
so if you can you have to insulate your source of income because that's the first thing they come after the first thing if you
Why your employer is your point of weakness when you’re a journalist or an academic
1:11:57
sin against the modern pieties the first thing they do is try to make sure you lose your job and that's often very
1:12:02
successful so that's why so many people are anonymous online i'm constantly constantly getting people in touch with
1:12:09
me telling me they can't say what they really think and you know sadly sometimes they're in child safeguarding positions
1:12:14
the first time i talked to a gender doctor we had to do it real cloak and dagger she wouldn't tell me her full name and
1:12:20
was via somebody else i knew who was able to vouch for her really working in the tavistock and i mean a million times
1:12:26
she said to me you can't say any of this you can't say this this is somebody who's actually putting children on a path to medical transition but she
1:12:33
couldn't talk about it at work and we've seen a recent case here with the whistleblower in the talistock who won her her employment tribunal because
1:12:40
as she raised child safeguarding issues and the um management told the clinicians not to go
1:12:46
to her so yeah your employer is your your point of weakness
1:12:51
and if your employer isn't you know isn't brave doesn't like telling bullies where to go
1:12:58
then you have a big problem and i would not advise anyone to do what i did unless um moral imperatives required
1:13:05
which they did in my case i mean i took a chance uh or like i mean once i found out they
1:13:10
were sterilizing children then it's all over like if that isn't the moment that you are willing to speak out then you know you can say to yourself you can look
1:13:16
back at you know um that famous poem the one you know they came for the first they came for though you know
1:13:23
you'd have been the person who was still sitting there if you hear that they're sterilizing children and they're putting rapists in women's jails and that does
1:13:28
not make you act that tells you something about yourself okay anyway if that's not how you feel about
1:13:34
it your employer is your point of weakness and the second thing is i'm not sure what the public shaming
1:13:42
what you're meant to make of that when you despise the people who are doing it like if somebody is willing to make up
1:13:47
lies about me and quote things from my book that i didn't say i think so ill of them that their opinion of me is simply
1:13:53
irrelevant to me and i've met such brilliant people through this there's so many fantastic
1:13:59
friends and fantastic thinkers that i've met um and their opinion matters to me i don't care
1:14:05
about liars and fools um and then the third thing i would say is
1:14:10
those are the tiny minority these shouting people are not representative of anyone you
1:14:16
said that about the trans community it's actually a style thing at the economist we don't use the word community in these circumstances what is the trans
1:14:22
community they're individuals some of them are conservative some of them are liberal some of them are straight some
1:14:28
of them are gay some are male some are female and even if they all have the same you know of those characteristics
1:14:34
they're different individuals they've really really different ideas about all of this and i would say the trans activists are the worst
1:14:40
representatives of a group that they purport to speak to that i have ever seen i've never seen a group that's so ill
1:14:46
served by the act by its activists i mean they are really bringing that whole
1:14:51
community towards what will be a horrendous backlash that i do not want to see yeah i sometimes say i'm trans
1:14:57
people's best friend yeah because i'm the one who's trying to stop a swing towards total insanity that's going to
1:15:02
cause a horrendous backlash that will also hit gay people by the way so yeah i mean remember that these
1:15:10
people who are shouting at you are really not good people and they're really not representative of anyone most
1:15:17
people are not like that those are the three bits of advice i'd give yeah
1:15:22
i think that's well put and i i'd be curious to know if you really think
1:15:28
there is anything to fear related to these people right like
1:15:34
well you said the first thing they come after is your is your paycheck right they try to get you fired so that you your livelihood is gone and they succeed
1:15:40
they succeed all the time outside of that is there
1:15:46
is there a reason to concern for physical safety is that something that you have considered or has been an issue
1:15:52
for you i mean i don't want to tempt fate but i mean not really i mean
1:15:58
my experience has been that they are the most pathetic bullies i've ever seen and bullies go for easy victims
1:16:05
so if they write a letter to your employer and your employer says we stand by her i mean by the way i should say to
1:16:11
your american listeners my position is the position of british law so you know we do not have gender
1:16:17
self-identification in this country male and female are really meaningful things and they mean the things that you're conceived
1:16:23
in this country so if your employer is willing to either ignore these people or write back to them saying um actually
1:16:29
you know helen is stating the position in british law we don't like bullies she's an excellent employee
1:16:35
they go away they don't come after you again they go find somebody else whose employer is a coward
1:16:40
and when you say they come after you is that an email barrage is it really on twitter
1:16:46
what are we talking about here when we talk about all of these things i mean it's possibly best not to talk about me
1:16:51
personally both because i try to keep my employer out of things to some extent um but also because my employer is the sort
Helen talks about her friend and researcher Maya Forstater, who lost her job due to social media backlash
1:16:57
of person who just immediately slapped down this [ __ ] and so we don't get very much of it um
1:17:03
what happens i mean i'll take my friend maya forsdata as an example who did lose her job with an american think tank here
1:17:08
in london specifically over this issue so briefly her story is that in 2017 the
1:17:13
government here said that it was going to do a public consultation on reforming the gender recognition act to introduce
1:17:19
self-id and maya works in international development and a lot of the work that you do in international development is
1:17:26
thinking about women and girls because it's their status that actually helps to improve family health child
1:17:31
health you know and in the future leads to greater um economic development
1:17:37
so she wrote you know quite measured things in her own name on social media saying she didn't think that they should change the law
1:17:43
and two of her american colleagues in the washington office complained and her employer went through this
1:17:49
process which ended up with her not having her contract renewed and british employment law is somewhat
1:17:55
different than an american employment law and that counts you know she wasn't an employee she was on a contract but that counts as
1:18:02
termination here so she went to an employment tribunal and it's been to the second stage now and it's been declared that she was
1:18:07
unlawfully discriminated against on the basis well not quite it's been declared that her belief that sex is real and
1:18:14
matters that's literally her belief that's been declared a protected belief under british employment law and now
1:18:19
there's a hearing to find out whether she was discriminated against on its basis this goes on for years and years
1:18:25
anyway i mean among the other things that has happened to maya is that um like random individuals around the
1:18:31
country who declare non-binary identities and such like have gotten kicked out of being a scout
1:18:37
scouting leader this is a bloke who calls himself non-binary who complained because she did exactly
1:18:42
what i just did namely she forgot in fact that he describes himself as they them and mentioned him as he
1:18:49
this guy got her um dropped from the scouts for misgendering
1:18:55
and and there's a lawyer who also identifies as not on binary and i think she's meant to
1:19:01
have described him as him as well um what else so so you know these people
1:19:06
once it's become clear that you've got no institutional defense they come after you to try to ruin everything
1:19:12
you know to like destroy just ordinary bits of your life get you kicked out of any you know
1:19:18
book club that you're in or anything like that um yes it's on social media she comes
1:19:24
under a lot of stress and pressure there but it's in real life too i wanna i know we're we're trying to uh
1:19:31
nearly near the end of the conversation there are a couple things that i wanna touch on one is just to get your thoughts on where you think we are with
1:19:37
this um [Music] you know i think probably you and i both
1:19:42
have a dislike for bullies in any sense and a deep love for liberal democracy as
1:19:48
you had articulated earlier and free expression free exchange of ideas and conversations like this being able to be
1:19:53
available to people and encouraged um in my estimation that's the only way you can even hope to get at the truth is
1:20:00
if you have conversations like this where people are free to share their their ideas um
1:20:07
how do you think where do you think we are with this you know as you look at
1:20:12
i think you said there you may think we're at a point of somewhat of a pushback right that you may be the best
1:20:18
friends of of trans activists of not hopefully having the pendulum swing back where rights are taken away from people
1:20:25
but um i get specific to language and dialogue and bullying generally
1:20:33
are we on the cusp of a shift here do you think we're just at the beginning of this kind of policing of
1:20:39
conversations and dialogue where do you come down on that at this point that's where you are i mean here in the uk
Where Helen thinks we are in terms of the policing of conversations and dialogue
1:20:45
we've certainly ended the no debate that was that was the slogan of our main transactivist organization here which is
1:20:51
called stonewall that was their slogan until very recently no debate transact trans women are women no debate
1:20:58
and now there's a debate and lots of people in government know there's a debate too and more of them are starting
1:21:04
to say it publicly like you know a friend of mine who's in the lobby which is um where you you know you're you get
1:21:09
a pass that allows you into westminster it's like being a you know a congressional reporter and
1:21:15
around 2017 he tried to ask pretty much every member of parliament what they thought about all of this and loads of
1:21:22
them were concerned loads of them knew that gender self id was a bad idea and they didn't dare to say so two or
1:21:28
three of them did more of them are saying it now and each person makes it easier for the next
1:21:33
so here in the uk we've certainly got past no debate um we you know more and more i'm hearing
1:21:39
you know people have read the book they get it um you know including you know senior law people and seen people in
1:21:44
politics um i reckon here we will if we keep pushing we will get
1:21:52
a reaffirmation of the importance of sex as a binary objective characteristic in
1:21:57
the few very limited circumstances where it matters because mostly it doesn't yeah and that's great and we're going to have
1:22:03
to just then go around the country into every damn school in every sports centre
1:22:10
everything absolutely everything everywhere they've written gender self id in without it being the law and actually
1:22:16
unroll that and keep saying look sex is a protected characteristic female people have a protective characteristic what
1:22:21
you've done isn't the law and that will take years to clean up i think that america is in a much more
1:22:26
difficult position and i think political polarization is part of the reason because
1:22:32
it stops people having these conversations where they understand each other's viewpoints so i mean at this conference that i was at over the
1:22:37
weekend uh i was standing outside talking to a couple of other women and this black man walked past me and said
1:22:43
[ __ ] racists to us it's like why do you think i'm a racist like it's
1:22:49
literally a not about race and b this whole bloody conference was about
1:22:54
women's solidarity and liberation worldwide you know we had an indian filmmaker there talking about you know
1:22:59
forced marriage et cetera et cetera but that's what he thought and he didn't stop to talk and it would have been very hard to move
1:23:05
in one conversation anyway well america's like that across the whole damn country you know you split into two groups each
1:23:12
of whom thinks the other one is not just differing politically but actually downright evil yeah and so there's large
1:23:19
numbers of people who think that the sorts of things i say can only come from a position of evil
1:23:25
and so people say things like um oh you must be funded by the heritage foundation i mean me you know
1:23:32
sort of center left you know atheist from ireland who lives in london of course i'm not funded by the damn heritage foundation what on earth
1:23:39
people said that about this conference i was at you know well yeah they love funding a bunch of lesbians to get
1:23:44
together because most of the people who run this conference lesbian they love secular lesbians uh you know love funding them it's
1:23:51
absolutely ridiculous but that's the assumption of bad faith is so serious and i think that's really going to get in the way of any move forward in
1:23:57
america and then i think i would i would add to that that america is very hampered by
1:24:03
using force analogies from race so that's done all the time and it's done in law it's done in discussions and
1:24:09
i quote quite a few of them in the book and you know often women are told that keeping trans women out of their spaces
1:24:16
is like what white people did during the jim crow era when they kept black people out of their spaces
1:24:21
but the thing is that the reason that you would keep black people out of your bathrooms or whatever is because you're
1:24:27
a racist it's because you think black people are inferior that isn't why women keep male people out of their spaces
1:24:32
it's not because we think they're inferior it's because they we know as a fact that they are the people who are the big
1:24:38
risk to us and also by the way we're the ones with no power we're not you know colluding to run the world in our
1:24:43
bathrooms you know it's men who have power over us they're physically stronger they're the ones who are running the world it's just
1:24:49
a terrible analogy but this analogy has such a hold over the american imagination and american discourse
1:24:55
that it's incredibly incredibly hard to say you know we need to think about anything
1:25:01
that's separate but equal like you know you're american you probably winced when i said separate but equal yeah well you
1:25:06
know the races aren't separate but equal they're they're just the same like people are just the same what skin color they are like it doesn't make them
1:25:13
different the sexes actually are separate they really are separate things and they
Why Helen strongly believes sexes are separate
1:25:18
should have parity of the stream even though they're slightly different so we do have to think differently about the sexes but americans find that very very
1:25:24
hard to do yeah so yeah i'm i'm worried about america and once you write things into law it's
1:25:30
terribly hard to unwrite them because it looks like you're taking rights away you look like you're rolling things back
1:25:36
so we just stopped gender self id getting in here and that's brilliant that was like it's only the beginning of the work but it would be much much
1:25:42
harder if we got if it had gone into law because we would have to undo something that some people understandably enough thought of as a right well lots of
1:25:49
american states do have gender self id and law now and uh the federal government is trying to put it into law federally as well
1:25:56
and once that happens you know women are in a really really difficult position you have to unroll things like that
1:26:02
nobody wants to do no legislator will want to take that on yeah um
1:26:07
one of the most important conversations i've had this year and i i put this i just wanted to convey this in case you
1:26:13
haven't heard of the organization is with the guy who co-founded braver angels which is an organization in the
1:26:18
u.s are you familiar with them have you ever i've read about them i've never talked to them i met him in manhattan
1:26:23
and i interviewed him at their headquarters in uh in midtown and their entire
1:26:28
philosophy and idea is to basically have grassroots workshops of bring together team red and
1:26:36
team blue america for seven hour long form conversations kind of like we're having with people that often
1:26:42
other you know on the other side think are evil or wicked and apparently according to david
1:26:47
blankenhorn who is the co-founder of the the results have been incredible and it gave me some hope that these uh that
1:26:54
that is really the path forward for trying to improve to disabuse people of the idea that
1:27:00
those who disagree with them are wicked and evil which i have seen everywhere in the country um it's been it's been difficult to
1:27:06
watch um i know i mean i'd like to share a conversation like that with you honey
1:27:11
um among the people i talked to for the book are people who i really disagree with profoundly yeah on pretty much
1:27:17
everything that's dear to me which is the alliance defending freedom so these are people who um fought
1:27:22
against gay marriage who you know fight against contraception being available on you know
1:27:28
freely and easily and they fight against abortion and now they're fighting on the same side as me
1:27:34
against admitting male people to female spaces and sports and so on which is why i was talking to them
1:27:39
and it was so interesting talking to what were lovely people who disagree with you doesn't change my
1:27:45
opinion on any of the things that i've just said but one of the calls i had was with a retired attorney who was one of the
1:27:52
people who had litigated on the and trying to stop a same-sex marriage and then did some of the bathroom bills
1:27:58
as they were called in america and he and i stayed on the line and we talked a long time and he told me why he
1:28:04
opposed gay marriage and he didn't change my mind but it was the best defense marriage of being something for
1:28:10
opposite sex couples only that i've ever heard and i've shared with so many of my gay
1:28:17
friends and they've gone like huh oh okay now i get what he says i'm still not going to agree but now i know why
1:28:22
he's doing it yeah and it was absolutely brilliant i mean i have gay relatives who are very close to me and i really
1:28:29
hope that they're able to marry their partners and i think it's actually awful when people count but now i know why i feel much better
1:28:36
about it yeah uh yeah so yeah i probably imagined i'd imagine that he was hateful but it was just that he's a very
1:28:42
different worldview than mine and it's a worldview i'm glad has lost to be clear yes yes i've had conversations like that
1:28:48
too and and while i haven't changed my mind it is good to know where people are coming from i think fundamentally you
1:28:54
you know that they're the changing mind front yeah and still human but also the other
1:29:00
the other really important thing about free speech like people it's amazing how people have forgotten this is the point
1:29:07
of it is that you learn things that you wouldn't have thought of otherwise yeah
1:29:12
and if you think of the pediatric transitioning and andrew sullivan for example on his blog very recently he read the article i mentioned to the
1:29:18
journalist abigail schreiber did with those two gender doctors and he said oh these children are an orgasmic they grow
1:29:25
up not to be able to have orgasms it's like my god andrew we have been shouting for years and you haven't been listening
1:29:31
but anyway finally good you heard it so somebody said something you're not meant to say and andrew sullivan finally
1:29:37
got it they're turning out adults many of them people who like him were offended little boys and would have grown up to be gay and they're not able
1:29:43
to have orgasms so free speech is also about saying things that people don't want you to hear yeah
What is free speech, according to Helen?
1:29:49
yeah um the last question i want to say to you i want to before i ask it to you i i just want to
1:29:55
say i i i really admire your courage and and what you've done with this um thank you we
1:30:02
and i i really do think i speak for millions and millions of people who have that view
1:30:07
i think most people who have a brain and appreciate freedom want conversations like this to happen
1:30:14
want books like yours to be available to change their mind to expose themselves to ideas they hadn't considered before i
1:30:20
think oppression and dictatorial thinking is not something natural for people who appreciate
1:30:26
being free um and so i just wanted to give a caveat that i i
1:30:32
admire what you're doing and i i hope you keep it up and i know it's probably been extremely difficult at times to endure um
1:30:38
you know what it's been fine yeah yeah i don't like being called brave i mean
1:30:44
you know i worried and worried and worried and then when i finally crystallized in my mind that they're sterilizing gay kids i reached this
1:30:49
point of complete cam that it was just all irrelevant so as you know because you've read the book one of the two quotes that i put at the front is from
1:30:55
audrey lord great feminist thinker and she says when i dare to be powerful
1:31:01
and so i'm going to have to look it up because i don't want to get it wrong because it's all right lord and when i dare to be powerful to use my
1:31:07
voice in service let me get this up and read it properly please
1:31:16
to be typing on your screen when you're listening to me
1:31:22
yeah when i dare to be powerful to use my strength in the service of my vision then it becomes less and less important
1:31:27
whether or not i am afraid so it just became irrelevant like this word this courage word just became irrelevant
1:31:33
and that was a nice feeling because you know thinking am i going to do something am i not going to do it am i the right person what will happen those
1:31:40
things are incredibly mentally taxing and once you've decided it's like being in the cold water actually it's
1:31:45
completely fine so that's another thing i would say to other people you know if you can be in a position where you know
1:31:50
you're not going to be unable to feed yourself and your family it feels great when you stop lying
1:31:56
wonderful yeah last question i want to ask is who else
1:32:01
do you trust you know who are the other writers thinkers um public intellectuals whoever who you
1:32:08
point to or recommend to other people who are interested in subjects like this or others to get information to get the truth to
1:32:16
get open exchange of ideas and information oh gosh i mean there's lots of people i
1:32:21
now read and it's funny so many of them have cancelled at some point not much of the mainstream media
1:32:28
i mean it's really obvious that people like fox news and the federalists have an agenda but it's just as obvious now
1:32:33
that washington post and new york times have an agenda i lost interest in the new york times when i read on their op-ed pages a piece by a trans woman
1:32:40
which said i am not just a woman i am female like they have fact-checkers like it's only
1:32:45
ideological idol ideological that you could allow that through um so
1:32:51
i've become very skeptical of most mainstream media on this topic on everything to do with anything
1:32:56
identitarian yeah and even political um more and more i rely on people i
1:33:04
admire sharing things so the two people i first found in america who wrote on this subject were
1:33:09
jessie single and katie herritzog i still listen to them in their podcast and and follow recommendations of theirs
1:33:15
even though politically were not probably very much in the same place abigail schreier's book was very good
Helen’s recommendations for writers, thinkers, public intellectuals, and groups who believe in an open exchange of ideas and information
1:33:20
and she's someone who's so politically in a different place than me she's like really she's a republican conservative
1:33:26
you know quite you know quite conservative jewish woman and that's not me at all but what she's done is the best that she can do that she's really
1:33:32
tried to be a proper journalist and i appreciate that and i still read her um
1:33:38
well sam freddie dubois is great um yeah i just i rely on a load of blogs now really to try to tell me stuff and
1:33:44
that's a shame because i want foreign correspondents too foreign correspondents usually fine actually but the foreign reporting is usually
1:33:50
fine in the american press yeah there's just the home reporting i think is very good yeah
1:33:56
um i really really appreciate your time and and for going through all of this in detail i know you do a lot of interviews
1:34:02
and um i've wanted to to have this conversation for for quite some time now so i i just wanted to say that in
1:34:09
closing that uh it means a lot to me that you would do this so thank you thank you
1:34:15
i think about it all the time so it's nice to have a chance to chat about [ __ ] my husband and children are completely sick of it
1:34:21
i understand that helen it was really great to meet you you too dan thanks alright take care good luck with
1:34:26
everything bye
1:34:32
thank you for listening to this episode of keep talking if you are finding value in this podcast please consider
1:34:37
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1:34:42
i truly appreciate all of you who are supporting the show [Music]
Episode 21: Helen Joyce - Trans: When Ideology Meets Reality
Keep Talking Podcast
2021/11/01 #GenderDysphoria #Woke #Trans
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